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Messages - DaveGodfrey

1
but if there's a notion here that people are entitled to work in the particular industry they know and like, even if it requires large and sustained public intervention to prop up, I see problems with that. 
If a person can't get a job that covers their expenses in the place they live... shouldn't they move?  If the jobs available to them don't meet their income requirements... shouldn't they retrain?

If people live in an rural setting, and it is unsustainable, we seem perfectly willing to insist that the rural dwellers should move to urban settings, retrain to a completely new field, and completely uproot their lives.  If people live in an urban setting, and it is unsustainable, we seem perfectly willing to increase minimum wage, provide housing and food assistance, subsidize their transportation, and make sure they aren't forced to uproot their lives.
Because a lot of other people who can afford to live in an urban setting want to have teachers, and nurses, and public transport operators, and retail workers within easy reach, and there's an awful lot of them with lots of money.
2
At a vague point at which the brain is sufficiently developed.

ETA: Ah, I see what this is in relation to. Yes, after they've exited the birth canal. Premature babies would be babies once they're out in the incubator. Before then they would be fetuses. In context people would be talking about humans that have been born, but are too young to be described as "toddlers". Infant would be a suitable alternative word.

Words not only mean things, but that meaning may be contextual.
3
Most hotdogs are crappy 80% rusk things where you barely have any meat in them anyway. Proper sausages however (and by extension proper frankfurters), couldn't be more different.
4
I'd still like to see that handled by the ethics investigation rather than a simple resignation. There needs to be a general system of accountability that applies to both Rs and Ds. If Dems resign when they do something shitty but Republicans just hold on and do nothing, accusations will become entrenched as a partisan tool to purge democrats.
Yeah, resignation is fine (at least it gets him out of office), but I still want a formal investigation.  You don't get to just "Bye!" your way out of it.  Also criminal charges for fuck's sake!
In Franken's case there are either no charges to press or his victims aren't interested in pressing charges. Which is their perogative.
5
City life is objectively the "bestest" based on every conceivable metric of quality of life, and as an actuary Pandora should know that better than anyone.
I don't think you're much able to conceive of anything useful here.

It's totally the best in being surrounded by filth, dirt, human excrement, and trash.  Also the best at being unaffordable for anyone except the wealthy.  And it's totally the best for being within walking distance of several posh food boutiques and really trendy gastropubs.  And it's unquestionably the best for being almost constantly within touching distance of total strangers who are happy to glare at you as you walk by.  And it totally rocks in terms of having the latest fashions, technology, and other overt status symbols on display for everyone to see how cool you are.

But if you happen to be fond of trees, or gardens, or home-cooked meals, or a back-yard, or a dog that doesn't fit in a purse, or the sound of the wind instead of cars, or the occasional bunny rabbit or dear being visible outside of a zoo... Yeah, not so much.

All the rats are very good at convincing themselves that the standards that rats have set for rat lives are the only reasonable standards for deer to judge their lives by.

It speaks volumes that your mind went to frolicking bunnies instead of, for example, mortality rates or access to education or economic opportunity. Or anything that matters outside of misguided fantasies about Getting Back to The Simple Life. Harsh truth: The Simple Life is hard. It's short, dangerous, and closed to opportunities of basically every kind. And you know this, which is why you're an actuary in a metro instead of running a combine out in Whitman County.
https://www.visitleevalley.org.uk/en/content/cms/nature/nature.../tottenham-marshes/

Coincidentally this opened to the public a couple of weeks ago. Its a short walk from my house.

I live in London. Population 8.7m
6
"Things become staples because its very easy to grow lots of it, and store and transport it with less labour than the alternatives."

STORE.

TRANSPORT.

Yes. Grow ... NO.

It is much easier to grow a flock of sheep if plenty of pasture is available.  if you have a flock of 1000 ewes, then in May when they have their lambs, you will have a flock of 2500 or 3000 instead of 1000.  And all YOU did was  introduce rams in December.

And watched over them to keep predators away. And rescued them when they fell in holes. And moved them from pasture to pasture. And milked them. And sheared them. And got your hands up inside them to help them give birth. And built and maintained fences to keep them from straying too far (and again to keep predators away). And built and maintained shelters for them in inclement weather. And a fuck load of other stuff. And you'd need several of you with a herd of 1000. Now I'll admit that my understanding of sheep farming is largely limited to old episodes of "All Creatures Great and Small" about a vet in Yorkshire who dealt with a lot of sheep farmers. But it very clearly introduced me to the idea that sheep farming involved work.

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It's also much easier to harvest perennial wheat than do all the work associated with annual wheat. That's why Walter reports such a high EROI figure for the ancient Persians (50) for this activity.  (Compare to 12 for Roman wheat farms)
The Persians were gathering perennial wheat right, rather than deliberately planting and cultivating it? So its pretty easy to walk along, picking off ears as you go and sticking them in your basket. But you don't actually get that much wheat for the same area compared to sticking annual wheat in a field. You see this is why EROI is  problem. Because it completely ignores a ton of otehr factors, Its far too reductionist.
You're right in your observation that Europeans have figured out how to take otherwise easy tasks and make them ridiculously hard, such as sheep farming.

This shit was happening in the fertile crescent Dave? You know, "Shepherds watching their flocks" and all that? Parables about lost sheep returning to the fold? Its been hard work doing this for millennia.

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  i'm not sure why this is. But I'm not the first to observe it. Keynes observed it as well. (link I posted awhile back).  anyway, people like Joe Hopping are rediscovering sheep farming with far less work.  there is no shearing,

There is if you want wool Dave. There's a reason many breeds of sheep are both good for meat and wool. Animal herding isn't just about food Dave. Sheep domestication absolutely wasn't.

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no hoof trimming, no tail docking, and no meds with the type of sheep that Joe raises.

Its a good think he's not in an area where rinderpest is common then. Or Foot-and-mouth disease. I'd be interested to know how they're immune to foot rot too.

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there is also no need to watch for predators because of the protection dogs.

How about watching for stupid sheep falling down a hole? How many does Hopping lose to accidents?

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You DO have to feed the protection dogs, but this is minimal because a family of two or three dogs can protect hundreds and hundreds of sheep.  Once a year you have a really long workday or two selecting rams and castrating the rejects.  once a year in November or so, there is a little bit of work involved in introducing the rams back into the flock for breeding.  Once a year in March or so, there is a fair amount of work rounding up the weaned lambs for sale and taking them to market.  other than that, there is not much work. Just moving a hot wire once a day and checking the water supply.

Ah, there we go. What powers the hot wire Dave? Solar? Does Joe make his own solar panels? Do you think the Mesopotamians had solar panels Dave?
7
In any case, I AM thinking holistically and have been for years ... (Lol that you think I haven't been) ...

Here's my original one I posted a year or two ago ...



And here's a more recent one ...

I remember that. I remember how much of a battle it was to get you to realise it might actually be necessary.
It's only necessary for YOU. I already know the answer  because it has been demonstrated all over the world all throughout history in various pockets.
Your revisionism is showing again Dave. Remember your perfectly spaced plots around the Ford Factory? Remember how we kept pointing out that it was spectacularly inefficient? Remember how you stamped your foot and insisted it wouldn't be a problem because everyone would work part-time at the factory and then spend the rest of their time torturing goats in a box on wheels?

No. Of course you don't. Its a good thing the messageboard exists so we can quote things to you then isn't it?

Nobody disputes that low-density housing with a nice view of the woods and a garden and a few chickens isn't a lovely way to live for some people. But unless you want to be living with 14th century technology that everyone you know can fix, you need people in cities elsewhere designing and building the stuff that you want and need.
8
"Things become staples because its very easy to grow lots of it, and store and transport it with less labour than the alternatives."

STORE.

TRANSPORT.

Yes. Grow ... NO.

It is much easier to grow a flock of sheep if plenty of pasture is available.  if you have a flock of 1000 ewes, then in May when they have their lambs, you will have a flock of 2500 or 3000 instead of 1000.  And all YOU did was  introduce rams in December.

And watched over them to keep predators away. And rescued them when they fell in holes. And moved them from pasture to pasture. And milked them. And sheared them. And got your hands up inside them to help them give birth. And built and maintained fences to keep them from straying too far (and again to keep predators away). And built and maintained shelters for them in inclement weather. And a fuck load of other stuff. And you'd need several of you with a herd of 1000. Now I'll admit that my understanding of sheep farming is largely limited to old episodes of "All Creatures Great and Small" about a vet in Yorkshire who dealt with a lot of sheep farmers. But it very clearly introduced me to the idea that sheep farming involved work.

Quote
It's also much easier to harvest perennial wheat than do all the work associated with annual wheat. That's why Walter reports such a high EROI figure for the ancient Persians (50) for this activity.  (Compare to 12 for Roman wheat farms)
The Persians were gathering perennial wheat right, rather than deliberately planting and cultivating it? So its pretty easy to walk along, picking off ears as you go and sticking them in your basket. But you don't actually get that much wheat for the same area compared to sticking annual wheat in a field. You see this is why EROI is  problem. Because it completely ignores a ton of otehr factors, Its far too reductionist.
9
In any case, I AM thinking holistically and have been for years ... (Lol that you think I haven't been) ...

Here's my original one I posted a year or two ago ...



And here's a more recent one ...

I remember that. I remember how much of a battle it was to get you to realise it might actually be necessary. 
10
Going back to Pingu's "separate accounting" mandate ... in my mind the whole thing categorizes as follows ...

SUSTAINABLE LIVING
-Sustainable Housing
-Sustainable Food Production
--EROI (human)
--EROI (fossil fuel)
--EROI (renewable)
---EROI (solar)
---EROI (wind)
---EROI (hydro)
-Sustainable Energy Production

Good.  Now break it down further and include, for instance, transport, transport infrastructure, and embodied energy.  And also land use.

And itemise the debits and credits.  Then you will start to see where the trade-offs are - e.g. where giving people more land to grow more of their own food (reduce food miles) is offset by the extra miles they have to travel to buy, or do, or make, what they DON'T produce locally. 


I'll do it when *I* get damn good and ready.  Don't rush me.  And don't pull that squid ink shit on me again.  I'll see right through it every time.
Its not squid ink you stupid man. Its something we've been telling you about since the beginning of this whole idiocy,
11
2)  I hope you are not trying to imply that the idea of not spending much time on food production being the thing that enables us to create us to create blessings of civilization is new for me.  It's an old idea for me and it is one of the motivators for me to do what I'm doing.  For years I have thought it to be very odd that on the one hand we say we are civilized, but on the other hand we have husbands and wives both working full-time 60 hour per week high stress jobs just to provide the basics of shelter and food and education and entertainment.  Something is wrong with that picture.
Something is wrong with that picture. Bluffy, have you data supporting your claim that "we have husbands and wives both working full-time 60 hour per week high stress jobs just to provide the basics of shelter and food and education and entertainment." That this is a prevalent circumstance? Because I don't know any couples with children wherein both adults are working full-time 60 hour per week high stress jobs just to provide the basics of shelter and food and education and entertainment. I know of couples that both work, I'm in one of them. And though the Girl's job is somewhat high stress, primarily because of despotic management, it's a 40 hour a week job. Mine is also and virtually zero stress and my income is going primarily towards buying a sailboat. My daughter and her husband both work, but they don't do much more than 40 hour weeks, ever. Another couple I know, friends of my daughter, both work, but the woman does not work full time and her job teaching teachers how to teach is not the least bit stressful while her husband works a relatively low stress 40 hour per week job,. None of these people are in financial distress nor just barely providing the basics. We all live in our own homes, all of which are pretty nice.

So where's your data?

There probably are people doing that, but most of them will be doing two or more minimum wage jobs (service industry ones for example), where most of the stress comes from the fact that you have to work 60 hours a week, for minimum wage (or below), with poor management, and that barely covers your bills. The actual stress from the job usually comes from poor staffing patterns (I'm not even supposed to be here today!), shit going wrong (oh look, the tills are broken yet again), or busy periods like Xmas sales, etc), unrealistic sales demands and the way management handle that, and co-workers/management failing at doing their jobs.
12
Don't get me wrong. We SHOULD examine those things separately. They are important. But to include them in a food production discussion is beyond stupid.

No, we should examine them TOGETHER.  You know, HOLISTICALLY.  Otherwise you are doing just what you condemn what you fondly imagine octohatter reductionist scientist do - focus on solving a little bit of a problem at the expensive of the WHOLE.

If you design a system in which everyone can produce enough calories to live on, but at a cost of having everybody dotted around on 10 acre lots, you are simply creating a new sustainability problem to replace the one you think you've solved.

Look, Dave, I appreciate, and even admire your commitment and enthusiasm to trying to "save the world" by developing ways of living more sustainably.  But the road to unsustainability is paved with solutions to one part of the problem that create problems elsewhere.

Don't take that road.
I'm not taking any wrong roads.  You know damn well that I'm working on other parts of sustainable living, not just food production, but for some reason you are all of a sudden acting like I'm not interested in that.  I am, but I'm not going to group them together.  For the same reason that you (rightly) didn't want to group human and fossil energy together.

Its not about "grouping them together" you silly man. Its about examining how changing one forces a change in the other. You know, looking at the "whole" and paying attention to the whole thing.

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What's happening here is what often happens when you see that you are about to lose an argument.  Rather than admit "OK I was wrong" ... you dispense squid ink, hoping that no one will notice that you were wrong.  What were you wrong about?  Most recently ... trying to say that the fact that cereal grains were staples means that their EROI was low. (i.e. lower than say animal foods)

WHICH "animal foods" Dave? Produced HOW? The thing is though, she's right. Things become staples because its very easy to grow lots of it, and store and transport it with less labour than the alternatives.
13
How about Sustainable Transportation, Dave?
14
That entire rainforest on your shoulder is showing again Dave.
15
Dave, I'm not agreeing with your perspective on any of this stuff. You're being a colossal fuckwit.
16
No Dave, its the storability and movability that PEOPLE like because then they can set aside food for hard times, or easily give it to other people who then don't have to work to produce their own food, but can concentrate on being specialists, so more stuff gets done.

Its not like societies other than hunter-gatherers had tyrants. The Mongols were pastoralists,. But y'know


17
:facepalm:

 :whyyou:


At least you understand the point of my analogy and how it relates to the choice between being a hunter-gatherer and being an agriculturalist.
18
How much of a surplus do they produce that can be easily stored, moved and passed on to people who aren't doing hunting and gathering Dave? You might have to do more work than a hunter-gatherer to get your crop, vs collecting whatever staples the few remaining modern hunter-gatherer societies do. But when you do so you have a lot more food at the end of it.

So while you do more work, you get a much bigger reward out of it. So it becomes worth it. If you had a choice between working 15 hours a week and having your rent, bills, and food paid for, but nothing more, so your bank balance always reads zero, or working 30 hours a week and having your bank balance in credit for a reasonable amount, so you can actually afford to buy new clothes, repair your car, buy gifts for your friends, lend them money if they need help, etc, which would you do?
personally, I'd get a little side job growing tomatoes and take the 15 hours a week job.
Your job is growing tomatoes. :colbert:
19
How much of a surplus do they produce that can be easily stored, moved and passed on to people who aren't doing hunting and gathering Dave? You might have to do more work than a hunter-gatherer to get your crop, vs collecting whatever staples the few remaining modern hunter-gatherer societies do. But when you do so you have a lot more food at the end of it.

So while you do more work, you get a much bigger reward out of it. So it becomes worth it. If you had a choice between working 15 hours a week and having your rent, bills, and food paid for, but nothing more, so your bank balance always reads zero, or working 30 hours a week and having your bank balance in credit for a reasonable amount, so you can actually afford to buy new clothes, repair your car, buy gifts for your friends, lend them money if they need help, etc, which would you do?
20
Hunting / gathering wasn't even the FIRST food system of mankind as is commonly supposed. Animal husbandry and tillage predated it.  Hunting / gathering seems to be what displaced people resort to after they have been conquered / dispersed. For example, the Wai Wai people ... believed to be descendants of the Inca Empire.
The only reason you think that is because of your idiotic ideas about the age of the Earth and your desperate need for a particular mythology to be true. Those of us willing to look at actual evidence however, find that hunter-gatherer societies are very much older than any pastoralist or agriculturalist ones.
21
"Cainian" agriculture took hold very early.

As did murder.

And other vices.

Wasn't Cain pre-Noah?

And I was referring to what you said here:

Development of "agriculture" -  especially tillage based on annual crops - had nothing to do with the building of "great" cities like Nineveh and Babylon.  Developing a system which requires 5X (or 20X) the amount of work to produce the same amount of food (thank you Father Cain)  is a step backwards, not forwards.

Step backwards from what?  Those cities are post-Flood, yes?
A step backward from (1) animal husbandry (began during Abel's lifetime)  and (2) perennial grain harvesting (not sure when that began)

What perennial grains Dave? How can it be a step back, when we haven't used them on a significant scale in the first place?

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Post Flood, yes.

Building those "great" cities had nothing to do with "Cainian (tillage) agriculture" at least not because it's "less work."

It may have involved more work. But it rewarded more food as a result. Certainly compared to hunter gatherer societies.
22
That would depend entirely on what other factors are changing though wouldn't it Dave?
24
Computers and Technology / Re: Robots and uncanny valleys
I worked there last year, and in terms of technical skill/aesthetic it doesn't feel any different from many of the other photos in the exhibition.
25
Computers and Technology / Re: Robots and uncanny valleys
Portrait of robot wins third prize in the Taylor Wessing Portrait Prize

Also the first prize winner is an amazing shot.