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Topic: Thoughts on Real Wealth (Read 1301 times) previous topic - next topic

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Thoughts on Real Wealth
Let's start will Bill Mollison's statement ...

Quote
Alan: Perhaps because we're so wealthy that we believe we don't have to.

Bill: Well, I don't call that wealth. You want a definition of wealth from Eskimos, the Inuit? Wealth is a deep understanding of the natural world. I think Americans are so poor it's pitiful, because you don't understand the natural world at all.

http://www.context.org/iclib/ic28/mollison/

  • Photon
  • I interfere with myself
Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #1
Are you trying to say that using both the standard and Mollison's definition, that you are stricken by poverty?

Because your understanding of the natural world, as opposed to the things you claim about it that you want to be true, leaves much to be desired. Your level of dearth of understanding, were it food, would lead to starvation.

Of course, that's about you, not the statement by Mollison, which does make a good point.

Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #2
Lol

  • ksen
Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #3
I feel poorer for having clicked into this thread.  :smith:

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #4
Are you trying to say that using both the standard and Mollison's definition, that you are stricken by poverty?

Because your understanding of the natural world, as opposed to the things you claim about it that you want to be true, leaves much to be desired. Your level of dearth of understanding, were it food, would lead to starvation.

Of course, that's about you, not the statement by Mollison, which does make a good point.
Except, of course, the Inuit (Eskimo) generally have a very limited understanding of the natural world. They may well have a very good understanding of the part of the world they lived in, but virtually no understanding of anywhere else. I am, of course, referring to the Inuit prior to contact with Europeans. No knowledge of horses, of wheeled vehicles, of tropical diseases, or plants and animals, no knowledge whatsoever of Antarctica, or Africa or South America or even most of Eurasia. Indeed, no knowledge of most of North America. No knowledge of metallurgy, electricity, much of modern science, nor astronomy. Yes, the Inuit knew how to survive in the Arctic. No question about that. How that relates to permaculture is beyond me. They had virtually no knowledge of animal husbandry nor of agriculture. Sort of a rather bad example to use.

I really take issue with people that somehow believe indigenous cultures were so wise and knowledgeable. They may have been quite knowledgeable about their own special local environment, but that's pretty obvious, they wouldn't have developed a culture based on that environment without having at least some knowledge of how to survive in such. Then again, most people living in current big cities know a heck of a lot about living in that city, which very few "natives" of anywhere else would. If a typical native of 19th century Tasmania or Tierra del Fuego or Hawaii or the Himalayas or the Andes or the Plains of North America were to be dropped into modern day London or Tokyo or New York, it's virtually a certainty they would not survive, much less flourish.

Just another example of Bluffy's hero worship.
Are we there yet?

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #5
... Yes, the Inuit knew how to survive in the Arctic. No question about that. How that relates to permaculture is beyond me.
I think the lesson of the Inuit wrt permaculture is pretty basic:
If we could keep the human population density down to what it was a few thousand years ago, our perturbation of the ecosystems on which we rely would be small enough that we would probably never push them past the tipping point toward terminal unsustainability.

Even if all 7.4 billion people on the planet decided today to be Bill Mollison*, the planet is still headed for a cataclysmic reckoning.
 (What would happen if all 7.4 billion decided to be Dave Hawkins doesn't bear thinking about.)

* He is survived by six children.

"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #6

Quote
I think the lesson of the Inuit wrt permaculture is pretty basic:

If we could keep the human population density down to what it was a few thousand years ago, our perturbation of the ecosystems on which we rely would be small enough that we would probably never push them past the tipping point toward terminal unsustainability.

Most intelligent thing voxrat has said in a very long time.

  • Photon
  • I interfere with myself
Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #7
So, Dave, you want to cull the human population in your plan?

Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #8
No

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #9
So, Dave, you want to cull the human population in your plan?
No, no, the world can sustain 14 times the current population. All we need to do is follow Bluffy's example and utilize 10 acres per person and ... ... I don't know, something will work out for that last 10%, probably all those folks who won't eat milk, the bastards, let them die and we can eat them.

Never mind over half of his figures for woodlands is boreal forest, which doesn't support any form of agriculture. Oh, and the rain forests, which have really terrible soils, the resources dwelling in the trees themselves.  Not to mention those two woodlands, comprising 75% of the total, are the primary source of oxygen on this planet. Hey, who needs oxygen when you have some warm rabbit? Right?!?
Are we there yet?

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #10
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #11
No
Really, how else could Vox's post be interpreted?

... Yes, the Inuit knew how to survive in the Arctic. No question about that. How that relates to permaculture is beyond me.
I think the lesson of the Inuit wrt permaculture is pretty basic:
If we could keep the human population density down to what it was a few thousand years ago, our perturbation of the ecosystems on which we rely would be small enough that we would probably never push them past the tipping point toward terminal unsustainability.

Even if all 7.4 billion people on the planet decided today to be Bill Mollison*, the planet is still headed for a cataclysmic reckoning.
is pretty definitive about the carrying capacity of this planet. Specifically to the point that even the current population is "still headed for a cataclysmic reckoning." Doesn't sound all that positive regarding our population.

Did you even read, by which I mean parsed every word and understood their holistic meaning as a sentence?
Indeed, I don't see anything in Vox's post that could be considered a "nugget" in favor of your notions, nothing at all.
  • Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 12:01:58 PM by RAFH
Are we there yet?

Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #12
Density

  • Photon
  • I interfere with myself
Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #13
Density
A comment on your thinking skills?

Because a significantly lower density of the current human population would be a logistical nightmare, a veriable explosion in fossil fuel use and vast decrease in efficiency for delivery of goods and services.

So, you must mean the density ingrained in your thinking skills.

Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #14
Yeah Photon

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #15
Density, as in "people per available or even potential resources".
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #16
Agreed

  • Fenrir
Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #17
So, Dave, you want to cull the human population in your plan?

David's plan will cull the population without needing any specified intent. It's a feature not a bug.
It's what plants crave.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #18
So, Dave, you want to cull the human population in your plan?

David's plan will cull the population without needing any specified intent. It's a feature not a bug.
Well, his mental capacity certainly decreases the density of intelligence per whatever metric you would like to use.
Are we there yet?

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #19
Density, as in "people per available or even potential resources".
Agreed
I don't think you've really thought this through.


The current density, in "people per available or even potential resources", is orders of magnitude more than it was a few thousand years ago. And it's getting denser - especially if everyone, like Bill Mollison - is going to be survived by six children.
  • Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 01:32:41 PM by VoxRat
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #20
When I talk about lowering population density I'm talking about the kinds of things I've been talking about for several years now... Something like 3 acres per human plus or minus  ... Which in theory could accommodate the entire current world population  on decent, productive land.

Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #21
So one of the goals on the 10 acres where I'm at now is to see if I can produce enough food calories per year for three adults ...  somewhere around 2 1/2 million food calories per year... Round up and call it three million.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #22
When I talk about lowering population density I'm talking about the kinds of things I've been talking about for several years now... Something like 3 acres per human plus or minus  ... Which in theory could accommodate the entire current world population  on decent, productive land.
"in theory" ?

Whose theory is that?
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #23
 Anyway, the point of this thread is that real wealth is a much different thing than what is imagined by most people in the world today.  I feel much more wealthy now with a few thousand dollars in the bank than I did with $3 million in the bank mainly because  I know far more about how to feed  and take care of myself sustainably now than I did back then. 

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Thoughts on Real Wealth
Reply #24
That's nice.
Thanks for sharing.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins