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Topic: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal (Read 906 times) previous topic - next topic

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Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Pingu has done a lovely job describing how multiple independent dating methods can be used to validate C14 dating.

From here:
http://talkrational.org/index.php/topic,1511.msg117671.html#msg117671

I'm starting this thread to avoid interrupting Pingu's explanation.

Dave ran out of puff and decided that he'd rather just look at a single subject.

I like this idea, and think there's a very simple way to test Brown's C14 proposal, without any of that "reductionist, multiple curves in agreement, independent dating methods, consilience claptrap". :D

I promise not to talk about varves, dendrochronology, ice cores, or other dating methods. I'll focus purely on C14.

So, Dave, you up for this?

Lakes are everywhere, and provide an excellent record of changes in climate. As long as a lake doesn't dry up then it will slowly accumulate sediment over time, providing a nice continuous record of deposition. Not all lakes are ideal for this. Some dry up, some are affected by floods, etc. However, identifying lakes that are likely to form nice clean sediment records is fairly easy and there are many lakes that fit the criteria.

Do you agree with the above?
[yes][no]

It appears that both Brown and yourself think C14 dating is adequate back to 3000BP. I am happy to work with that.

Do you agree that C14 is adequate to 3000BP, as per your and Brown's previous writings?
[yes][no]

Now, Brown and yourself both propose that C14 dating prior to 3000BP was influenced by the flud and have both posted proposed curves showing the C14 ratio dropping rapidly from 3000BP to 4500/5500BP (or whatever year the flud was supposed to occur).

Do you agree with the curves proposed by Brown and yourself (Brown in his book, you in your varves spreadsheet). I know those curves don't agree precisely. If you like you can nominate whichever one you agree with.

[yes]/[no]

I'll post again once you're happy with the above.
  • Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 05:59:38 PM by Martin.au
"That which can be asserted with evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." (Dave Hawkins)

Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #1
I don't think Dave wants to investigate Browns c14 model.
"That which can be asserted with evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." (Dave Hawkins)

  • osmanthus
  • Administrator
  • Fingerer of piglets
Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #2
He doesn't seem to like it much. Funny, considering how much respect he has for Brown.
Truth is out of style

Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #3
It's purpose is not to pursue knowledge but rather to shore up a leaky spot in a belief system. It would be ridiculous/disastrous. to actually try to use it as real science.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #4
Yeah. I don't think I gave him enough endless minutiae to 'investigate' (hide behind).
"That which can be asserted with evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." (Dave Hawkins)

Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #5
No

Yes

No

Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #6
Ok, why do you disagree with the sediments depositing in lakes statement, and I really, really, really want to know why you don't agree with yours or Brown's c14 curve?
"That which can be asserted with evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." (Dave Hawkins)

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #7
Ok, why do you disagree with the sediments depositing in lakes statement, and I really, really, really want to know why you don't agree with yours or Brown's c14 curve?
Me too.
Are we there yet?

Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #8
Just to make it clear, with daveydork's answers:

Quote
Lakes are everywhere, and provide an excellent record of changes in climate. As long as a lake doesn't dry up then it will slowly accumulate sediment over time, providing a nice continuous record of deposition. Not all lakes are ideal for this. Some dry up, some are affected by floods, etc. However, identifying lakes that are likely to form nice clean sediment records is fairly easy and there are many lakes that fit the criteria.

Do you agree with the above?
[no]

It appears that both Brown and yourself think C14 dating is adequate back to 3000BP. I am happy to work with that.

Do you agree that C14 is adequate to 3000BP, as per your and Brown's previous writings?
[yes]

Now, Brown and yourself both propose that C14 dating prior to 3000BP was influenced by the flud and have both posted proposed curves showing the C14 ratio dropping rapidly from 3000BP to 4500/5500BP (or whatever year the flud was supposed to occur).

Do you agree with the curves proposed by Brown and yourself (Brown in his book, you in your varves spreadsheet). I know those curves don't agree precisely. If you like you can nominate whichever one you agree with.

[no]

Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #9
Ok, why do you disagree with the sediments depositing in lakes statement, and I really, really, really want to know why you don't agree with yours or Brown's c14 curve?
Lots of lakes would've been formed in the post-flood run off and it doesn't appear that  your statement takes that into account.   Brown did a good job of identifying the problem but his analysis understandably was not very detailed.  Mine wasn't either.

Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #10
If there was a global flood, wouldn't all lakes be effectively 'post flood' for purposes of your 'argument'?

Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #11
Yes

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #12
But there is no evidence for a "Global Flood"
The "Billions of Dead Things" is a joke.
It is obviously much more consistent with standard science than biblical mythology.
The "LotsOfFludLegends" is similarly a joke.
First because it's much better explained by the fact that people since before the dawn of history have tended to live near water.
Which, not infrequently, floods. Often disastrously.
But more important - the fact I have rubbed Hawkins's nose in countless times over the years, it is not possible for an "eyewitness" to determine from one vantage point HOW far the flood extends, let alone whether it's "Global".    Unless there was a space station, or satellite technology Genesis neglected to mention.

Duh.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • nesb
Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #13
I was reading about Lake Baikal today, which is thought to be the oldest lake on the planet, at about 25 million years old. It's also home to its very own seal--the Baikal seal, or nerpa--which is the only freshwater seal, and only lives there. #RandomNatureFacts

Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #14
Must you clutter up EVERY thread with your hoof wanking bungle cuntery? (Voxrat)

  • JonF
Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #15
I was reading about Lake Baikal today, which is thought to be the oldest lake on the planet, at about 25 million years old. It's also home to its very own seal--the Baikal seal, or nerpa--which is the only freshwater seal, and only lives there. #RandomNatureFacts
And an arkload of varves.
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

  • JonF
Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #16
Must you clutter up EVERY thread with your hoof wanking bungle cuntery? (Voxrat)
Must you clutter up EVERY thread with your hoofwanking bunglecuntery? (Dave)
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #17
I was reading about Lake Baikal today, which is thought to be the oldest lake on the planet, at about 25 million years old. It's also home to its very own seal--the Baikal seal, or nerpa--which is the only freshwater seal, and only lives there. #RandomNatureFacts
So we would expect it to have 25 million varves, right?

  • Sea Star
  • Not an octohatter
Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #18
I was reading about Lake Baikal today, which is thought to be the oldest lake on the planet, at about 25 million years old. It's also home to its very own seal--the Baikal seal, or nerpa--which is the only freshwater seal, and only lives there. #RandomNatureFacts
So we would expect it to have 25 million varves, right?
Not necessarily.

  • nesb
Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #19
I was reading about Lake Baikal today, which is thought to be the oldest lake on the planet, at about 25 million years old. It's also home to its very own seal--the Baikal seal, or nerpa--which is the only freshwater seal, and only lives there. #RandomNatureFacts
So we would expect it to have 25 million varves, right?

It has 5 million varves. It's also the deepest lake in the world. More than 5,000 ft deep. Imagine seeing that on your depth finder. Plus, it has over 20% of the world's fresh surface water.

  • JonF
Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #20
I was reading about Lake Baikal today, which is thought to be the oldest lake on the planet, at about 25 million years old. It's also home to its very own seal--the Baikal seal, or nerpa--which is the only freshwater seal, and only lives there. #RandomNatureFacts
So we would expect it to have 25 million varves, right?
Sorry, Davie-doodles, only 12 million.

You assume that any lake producing varves has done so since its initial formation.

The possibility of conditions changing never crossed your feeble mind.

Duh.
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

  • nesb
Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #21
My source said 5 million. Now I can never trust again.

  • JonF
Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #22
Seems that there's some disagreement. I can't find an authoritative source right now.
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

  • nesb
Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #23
Still over 6,000. Either way.

  • JonF
Re: Hey Dave. Here's a single topic (no curves), to test Brown's proposal
Reply #24
My source said 5 million. Now I can never trust again.
I just checked your source. Later it says 12 million. Third bullet.
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins