Skip to main content

TR Memescape

  • Talk Rational: Be strong

Topic: The Tides ... Take 5 (Read 381 times) previous topic - next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
  • F X
  • The one and only
The Tides ... Take 5
But then I remember the tides ...

Speaking of which, remember that oceanography textbook you quoted while flailing around trying to support your FysiX?  The new edition has been corrected.

Evidences?
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #1
But then I remember the tides ...

Speaking of which, remember that oceanography textbook you quoted while flailing around trying to support your FysiX?  The new edition has been corrected.

Evidences?

Go check it.

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #2
Ha!  I have no idea which text you are talking about.

Forgot all about it.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #3
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #4
Yes, that error has now been corrected by the author. 

Ironically, it was your attempts to argue for it that resulted in it getting fixed.

Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #5
From the new edition:

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #6
Fascinating.

Meanwhile, back in the real world of physics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=5zi7N06JXD4

North sea tides

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M44miAiHhrk
  • Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 06:37:44 PM by F X
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #7
The essential problem for the non existent twin ocean bulges, is that they simply do not exist.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #8
The essential problem for the non existent twin ocean bulges, is that they simply do not exist.

Obviously. There are continents in the way.

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #9
Like I said, the argument is as eternal as the tides
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #10
The essential problem for the non existent twin ocean bulges, is that they simply do not exist.
In the animation: Check the Polar ocean encircling the Antatatica. You can follow the "bulges" around the Antatatic continent.
They are distorted by the continents, but clearly visible.


  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #11
The essential problem for the non existent twin ocean bulges, is that they simply do not exist.

Obviously. There are continents in the way.
In the animation: Check the Polar ocean encircling the Antarctica. You can follow the "bulges" around the Antarctic continent.
They are distorted by the continents, but clearly visible.

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #12
Do you have a point?
  • Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 02:51:59 PM by cold one

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #13

Yes, that error has now been corrected by the author. 
What error?
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #14
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #15

Yes, that error has now been corrected by the author. 
What error?


The second and third bullet points are false and based on a misunderstanding of the physics of tides.  They have been corrected in the latest version, indirectly thanks to you.  Good job!

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #16
The second and third bullet points are false and based on a misunderstanding of the physics of tides. 

They are not false, and of course they are two of the main reasons you want to argue over this.  Somehow you still think a forced wave (the tide wave) won't also be a shallow water wave. 

I tried years ago to get you to think about this, but you simply went all Humber and avoided the matter.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #17
You also somehow don't seem familiar with the Laplace tidal equations, nor do you seem to understand the sat data (TOPEX) that clearly shows there is never a twin bulge moving faster than the speed of sound, anywhere, at any time.  There can't be, because physics.  But it's no longer a matter of just theory and models, we have global measurements.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #18
For anyone interested, and the chance of that is slim, you can calculate the wavelength of waves  created by a 30 knot wind, (in tis case, the forcing, creating forced waves), and then calculate what happens to a forced wave as it encounters shallow water, so that this nonsense about a forced wave being able to exceed the speed from the equations could be put to rest.  (haha, just kidding, it won't matter to a true believer)

http://www.exo.net/~pauld/activities/waves/waterwavespeed.html
http://www.surfline.com/surfology/surfology_forecast2.cfm

A 30 knot wave in deep water with a 30 knot forcing is pretty easy to calculate, and as the waves (forced waves, deep water waves) encounter shallow water, the speed decreases (the 20 second period, the time between crests won't change), but the speed of course decreases, since that is how the physics of waves works. (forced or free waves)

The difference between a free wave and forced waves when in shallow water is simple.  The forced waves won't lose much energy, since the wind is still adding to their energy,  but a free wave will lose energy, the longer it encounters shallow water the more energy lost, since it causes them to become steeper, and gravity is always draining a wave of energy.  (deep water waves experience no friction from the bottom, so they don't lose much energy from friction)  The tide is always so long a wave it always is losing energy from the shallow ocean bottom, even when the ocean is 5 kilometers deep.   It simply can't move fast enough in our oceans to keep up, so we get amphidromic systems instead, the real tides.

When a wave encounters the bottom, it slows it, and this is energy lost, which is exactly why the tides can't break the laws of physics and keep up with the moons force.  Except of course around 60 degrees latitude, where the ocean is deep enough  and the speed fast enough.  (but even then, amphidromic systems, not a single or twin bulge)

But directly under the moon, near the equator, the tide simply can't move fast enough in the real ocean, which is what Laplace (and others) have noted for a long time.  They even created formulas to show what happens.

But if you ignrre physics, you can still believe there are twin bulges, racing under the moon. 

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #19
The second and third bullet points are false and based on a misunderstanding of the physics of tides. 

They are not false, and of course they are two of the main reasons you want to argue over this.

Yes they are, and your source textbook has now been changed to correct that error.  But go on, keep arguing forever (instead of actually learning something).

Quote
Somehow you still think a forced wave (the tide wave) won't also be a shallow water wave. 

It obeys different equations than a free wave does, because it's forced.

Quote
I tried years ago to get you to think about this, but you simply went all Humber and avoided the matter.

I provided equations, derivations, textbook references, numerical simulations, exact solutions...  none of that had any effect on you.  I'm not going to waste my time doing that again, but it's all there if you (or anyone else) actually cares to look.  You're wrong and you're completely incapable of admitting it.  Too bad for you.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #20
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #21
They are not false, and of course they are two of the main reasons you want to argue over this.

Yes they are, and your source textbook has now been changed to correct that error. 


I'm curious if you're ever going to acknowledge you were wrong about this.  Think about it - after frantically scouring the internet to counter the overwhelming evidence (math, computer simulations, fluid dynamics textbooks, physics arguments) against your assertions, you finally come up with an authoritative source that clearly supports you.  An oceanography textbook!  What could possibly be more authoritative?

And now, the new edition of that same oceanography textbook has been changed precisely to correct the error you've been advocating.  And what do you do?  Pretend it's not there and post the same old red herrings and diversions and "because FysiX" arguments you always did. 

Is this how people argue against global warming?   Sad, because there the truth really matters.

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #22
I'm not going to waste my time doing that again,
Of course you are.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #23
I'm not going to waste my time doing that again,
Of course you are.

No, I'm not.  I'm asking about your psychology.  This no longer has anything to do with science, because the science is obviously irrelevant to you.

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #24
You can follow the "bulges" around the Antatatic continent.
There shouldn't even be two bulges at that latitude.    (remember, according to the theory the bulge is supposed to be "under" the moon)  The moon never comes close to being over Antarctica, the non-existent bulges would be near the equator, which is just one of many reasons the southern ocean has no twin bulges.  If the bulge theory was correct there would be one slight rise, or no bulges, at that latitude, due to how the moons orbit is tilted.



What you are seeing is a result of the amphidromic systems, the real ocean response to the changing gravitational attraction of the moon and sun, and the earth rotating, etc etc
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭