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Topic: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW) (Read 2252 times) previous topic - next topic - Topic derived from Direct Down Wind Fast...

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Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #300
But wait, I think we're all still confused by this...

"Hydrogen molecules are very large, so the ammonia gas molecules , being very small..."

OK, think of the BIG ping-pong balls and the little BB pellets in the video. The Hydrogen needs a lot of "elbow room" for itself, so-to speak. the molecular forces associated with Hydrogen are "Big". Need a lot of space between each other, are more "crowded" together and so maintain high pressure. collide more. The ammonia is very "small" by comparison so it has freedom of movement between the crowded Hydrogen. So they can exist together, hydrogen and ammonia  at two different pressures although the whole system is pressurized at one pressure.

 If someone can think of a better way to explain it have at it, but that is a simple way to explain or visualize what is going on and why the system works. How, although existing together in the same vessel or pipe or space at the same pressure, the ammonia is free to move and is at low pressure while the Hydrogen is not free to move as much and is at high pressure. As far as the molecules "LOOK" to each other. The Hydrogen is BIG, it has no room to move and is under pressure but the ammonia is small and can expand freely into the space occupied by the hydrogen or rather between the hydrogen, like sand between marbles, by just expanding into the space between the hydrogen molecules.

  • Fenrir
Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #301
So ammonia, with an atomic mass if 17ish, and containing 3 hydrogen atoms, is much smaller than a single hydrogen atom, with an atomic mass of 1ish?

That's very interesting, wonderful the things we know nowadays, "and that, my leige, is how we know the world to be banana shaped".

Indeed.
It's what plants crave.

  • MikeS
Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #302
But wait, I think we're all still confused by this...

"Hydrogen molecules are very large, so the ammonia gas molecules , being very small..."

OK, think of the BIG ping-pong balls and the little BB pellets in the video. The Hydrogen needs a lot of "elbow room" for itself, so-to speak. the molecular forces associated with Hydrogen are "Big". Need a lot of space between each other, are more "crowded" together and so maintain high pressure. collide more. The ammonia is very "small" by comparison so it has freedom of movement between the crowded Hydrogen. So they can exist together, hydrogen and ammonia  at two different pressures although the whole system is pressurized at one pressure.
(WTF?)2

It's more Interestinger than the last post.
Quote
If someone can think of a better way to explain it have at it, but that is a simple way to explain or visualize what is going on and why the system works. How, although existing together in the same vessel or pipe or space at the same pressure, the ammonia is free to move and is at low pressure while the Hydrogen is not free to move as much and is at high pressure. As far as the molecules "LOOK" to each other. The Hydrogen is BIG, it has no room to move and is under pressure but the ammonia is small and can expand freely into the space occupied by the hydrogen or rather between the hydrogen, like sand between marbles, by just expanding into the space between the hydrogen molecules.

Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #303
But wait, I think we're all still confused by this...

"Hydrogen molecules are very large, so the ammonia gas molecules , being very small..."

OK, think of the BIG ping-pong balls and the little BB pellets in the video. The Hydrogen needs a lot of "elbow room" for itself, so-to speak. the molecular forces associated with Hydrogen are "Big". Need a lot of space between each other, are more "crowded" together and so maintain high pressure. collide more. The ammonia is very "small" by comparison so it has freedom of movement between the crowded Hydrogen. So they can exist together, hydrogen and ammonia  at two different pressures although the whole system is pressurized at one pressure.
(WTF?)2

It's more Interestinger than the last post.
Quote
If someone can think of a better way to explain it have at it, but that is a simple way to explain or visualize what is going on and why the system works. How, although existing together in the same vessel or pipe or space at the same pressure, the ammonia is free to move and is at low pressure while the Hydrogen is not free to move as much and is at high pressure. As far as the molecules "LOOK" to each other. The Hydrogen is BIG, it has no room to move and is under pressure but the ammonia is small and can expand freely into the space occupied by the hydrogen or rather between the hydrogen, like sand between marbles, by just expanding into the space between the hydrogen molecules.


If you'd like, please explain it using quantum mechanics. But that isn't necessary and the HVAC guy might not get it.

Under pressure the kinetic diameter or "size" of hydrogen is "bigger" than ammonia. Actually in terms of molecular forces, hydrogen is "bigger" anyway but this property is magnified at certain temperatures and pressures.

Refrigeration, heat pumps, etc. take advantage of these "weird" properties of gases. For all intents and purposes, without getting too complicated or technical, In an absorption ammonia, hydrogen refrigeration system hydrogen is actually bigger in terms of its "kinetic diameter" than ammonia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_diameter

  • MikeS
Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #304
Yeah, Hydrogen molecule kinetic diameter of 289 nm is so much larger that ammonia diameter of 260 nm that the ammonia particle is encapsulated by the hydrogen molecules as you stated.

Also this ....

Quantum Mechanical Basis for Kinetic Diameters of Small Gaseous Molecules

  • MikeS
Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #305
Under pressure the kinetic diameter or "size" of hydrogen is "bigger" than ammonia.
{pressure vs. kinetic diameter chart needed}
Quote
Actually in terms of molecular forces, {define WHAT forces???} hydrogen is "bigger" anyway but this property is magnified at certain temperatures and pressures.
{citations and charts needed}

Quote
Refrigeration, heat pumps, etc. take advantage of these "weird" properties of gases.
{citation needed}
Quote
For all intents and purposes, without getting too complicated or technical,
No , please do get "complicated" and/or "technical".  The devil IS in the details.
Quote
In an absorption ammonia, hydrogen refrigeration system hydrogen is actually bigger in terms of its "kinetic diameter" than ammonia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_diameter
What does this mean?  {pressure vs. kinetic diameter chart needed}

Quite a lot of claims that require some form of support or another.

Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #306
Under pressure the kinetic diameter or "size" of hydrogen is "bigger" than ammonia.
{pressure vs. kinetic diameter chart needed}
Quote
Actually in terms of molecular forces, {define WHAT forces???} hydrogen is "bigger" anyway but this property is magnified at certain temperatures and pressures.
{citations and charts needed}

don't care

Quote
Refrigeration, heat pumps, etc. take advantage of these "weird" properties of gases.
{citation needed}

Don't care.

Quote
For all intents and purposes, without getting too complicated or technical,
No , please do get "complicated" and/or "technical".  The devil IS in the details.
Quote
In an absorption ammonia, hydrogen refrigeration system hydrogen is actually bigger in terms of its "kinetic diameter" than ammonia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_diameter
What does this mean?  {pressure vs. kinetic diameter chart needed}

Don't care.

Quite a lot of claims that require some form of support or another.

For a citation you can use Tom Booth crackpot http://talkrational.org/index.php/topic,1671.msg132584.html#msg132584

I really don't care.


I'm trying to have a friendly conversation about a subject I find facinating, that's all. If you have something constructive to contribute to the conversation, please do. Otherwise I really can't be bothered.

  • MikeB
Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #307
....A compressed mixed gas like air does not necessarily adhere to PV = nRT
I thought mixed gasses were no different, each acting by its partial pressure, as long as there were no chemical reactions between the gasses.  What is the potential deviation from PV = nRT?

Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #308
I'm trying to have a friendly conversation about a subject I find facinating, that's all. If you have something constructive to contribute to the conversation, please do. Otherwise I really can't be bothered.

You're new here, aren't you? :D
"That which can be asserted with evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." (Dave Hawkins)

  • MikeS
Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #309
I'm trying to have a friendly conversation about a subject I find facinating, that's all. If you have something constructive to contribute to the conversation, please do. Otherwise I really can't be bothered.
Well, next time I'll not hold back and just show you where you fall down on your science understanding.  You can find unicorns and candy cane mountain fascinating, doesn't mean it exists anywhere in the present known universe.

You're making fundamental errors in science, math, physics, chemistry, chemical kinetics, chemical thermodynamics, quantum mechanics ... shall i continue?

Discovery by the scientific method takes a pretty well known path.  Your hypothesis about Tesla heat engines.  But the next step, building a working model, is where you've fallen flat on your face.  Your math doesn't work, your trying to overturn Boyle's Law (NOT, I might add, Boyle's flippant observation about mixed gasses) with your commentary about Hydrogen being at a higher pressure than Ammonia in the same equilabrated vessel.  Etc., etc., etc.

Oh, and if this is a schtick then your doing that wrong too since you're not convincing too many people.

If you see a poster by the name "Jet Black" and he comes by the thread with a one liner saying "Nope, won't work."  You might listen since he holds  PhD in physics.

There's a lot of educated and opinionated people on this board.  Ask questions, be a bit humble, because that the poster your conferring with might just hold the patent (or be the person who processed the patent) of the machine your talking about.

Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #310
....A compressed mixed gas like air does not necessarily adhere to PV = nRT
I thought mixed gasses were no different, each acting by its partial pressure, as long as there were no chemical reactions between the gasses.  What is the potential deviation from PV = nRT?

PV = nRT predicts "Ideal" gas behavior.

Compressed or not, there is no such thing as an ideal gas.

The formula works OK for most common purposes, but for gases at low temperature or under pressure or both, corrections based on empirical testing are needed.

Something like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict%E2%80%93Webb%E2%80%93Rubin_equation

 PV = nRT doesn't give the right answers. More complex equations are used. PV = nRT does not even apply consistently to pure gases under pressure, I can only imagine the deviations one would see for mixed gas that can literally occupy the same space or plain old air at low temperature and high pressure. Eventually Gases liquefy or freeze and are no longer gases at all. An "Ideal Gas" does not liquefy. Refrigeration systems, heat pumps, air conditioners, gas liquefaction, The Lind system for liquefying air, all utilize the Joule-­Thomson effect. For an "Ideal Gas" there is no such thing as the Joule-Thomson effect.

https://www2.southeastern.edu/Academics/Faculty/delbers/ideal-real-gasses.htm

http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/ch4/deviation5.html

https://chem.libretexts.org/LibreTexts/University_of_Missouri/UM%3A_Chem_1320_(Keller)/10%3A_Gases/10.9%3A_Real_Gases_-_Deviations_from_Ideal_Behavior

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/gases-and-kinetic-molecular-theory/non-ideal-gas-behavior/a/non-ideal-behavior-of-gases

https://chemengineering.wikispaces.com/Joule%E2%80%93%C2%ADThomson+effect

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEL28zI_lks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yg6_qVFEAw


There is not really a hell of a lot of information on the subject of how the ideal gas equation deviates, or how REAL mixed gas deviates under pressure, at cold temperatures because PURE gases deviate enough already that it doesn't apply.

For most purposes, treating any gas as "Ideal" is close enough,

so does it make a difference?

Well, do we need refrigeration? Heat pumps? Air conditioning? Liquid Fuel that sort of thing? If all gases were really "Ideal" and behaved the same way all the time at all temperatures and pressures none of that would be possible.
  • Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 07:45:57 PM by Tom Booth

Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #311
I'm trying to have a friendly conversation about a subject I find facinating, that's all. If you have something constructive to contribute to the conversation, please do. Otherwise I really can't be bothered.
Well, next time I'll not hold back and just show you where you fall down on your science understanding. 

Great, If you have something intelligent to say say it. So far you seem to just be revealing how much you don't know. So if you have some actual corrections to make in something I've said, please enlighten us.


You can find unicorns and candy cane mountain fascinating, doesn't mean it exists anywhere in the present known universe.

You're making fundamental errors in science, math, physics, chemistry, chemical kinetics, chemical thermodynamics, quantum mechanics ... shall i continue?

Sure, like what fundamental errors specifically?

Discovery by the scientific method takes a pretty well known path.  Your hypothesis about Tesla heat engines.  But the next step, building a working model, is where you've fallen flat on your face.  Your math doesn't work, your trying to overturn Boyle's Law (NOT, I might add, Boyle's flippant observation about mixed gasses) with your commentary about Hydrogen being at a higher pressure than Ammonia in the same equilabrated vessel. 

Are you denying this? Are you really suggesting that in an absorption refrigeration system, The ammonia does not expand and cool due to experiencing low pressure when combined with Hydrogen in a pressure equalized system? 

 Etc., etc., etc.

Oh, and if this is a schtick then your doing that wrong too since you're not convincing too many people.

If you see a poster by the name "Jet Black" and he comes by the thread with a one liner saying "Nope, won't work."  You might listen since he holds  PhD in physics.

There's a lot of educated and opinionated people on this board.  Ask questions, be a bit humble, because that the poster your conferring with might just hold the patent (or be the person who processed the patent) of the machine your talking about.



  • MikeS
Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #312
I'm trying to have a friendly conversation about a subject I find facinating, that's all. If you have something constructive to contribute to the conversation, please do. Otherwise I really can't be bothered.
Well, next time I'll not hold back and just show you where you fall down on your science understanding. 

Great, If you have something intelligent to say say it. So far you seem to just be revealing how much you don't know. So if you have some actual corrections to make in something I've said, please enlighten us.


You can find unicorns and candy cane mountain fascinating, doesn't mean it exists anywhere in the present known universe.

You're making fundamental errors in science, math, physics, chemistry, chemical kinetics, chemical thermodynamics, quantum mechanics ... shall i continue?

Sure, like what fundamental errors specifically?

Discovery by the scientific method takes a pretty well known path.  Your hypothesis about Tesla heat engines.  But the next step, building a working model, is where you've fallen flat on your face.  Your math doesn't work, your trying to overturn Boyle's Law (NOT, I might add, Boyle's flippant observation about mixed gasses) with your commentary about Hydrogen being at a higher pressure than Ammonia in the same equilabrated vessel.

Are you denying this? Are you really suggesting that in an absorption refrigeration system, The ammonia does not expand and cool due to experiencing low pressure when combined with Hydrogen in a pressure equalized system? 

 Etc., etc., etc.

Oh, and if this is a schtick then your doing that wrong too since you're not convincing too many people.

If you see a poster by the name "Jet Black" and he comes by the thread with a one liner saying "Nope, won't work."  You might listen since he holds  PhD in physics.

There's a lot of educated and opinionated people on this board.  Ask questions, be a bit humble, because that the poster your conferring with might just hold the patent (or be the person who processed the patent) of the machine your talking about.



Well, I would put reading comprehension down as a first item.

Although details are a bitch, you have to not only read details but also convey details too.

Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #313
I'm trying to have a friendly conversation about a subject I find facinating, that's all. If you have something constructive to contribute to the conversation, please do. Otherwise I really can't be bothered.
Well, next time I'll not hold back and just show you where you fall down on your science understanding. 

Great, If you have something intelligent to say say it. So far you seem to just be revealing how much you don't know. So if you have some actual corrections to make in something I've said, please enlighten us.


You can find unicorns and candy cane mountain fascinating, doesn't mean it exists anywhere in the present known universe.

You're making fundamental errors in science, math, physics, chemistry, chemical kinetics, chemical thermodynamics, quantum mechanics ... shall i continue?

Sure, like what fundamental errors specifically?

Discovery by the scientific method takes a pretty well known path.  Your hypothesis about Tesla heat engines.  But the next step, building a working model, is where you've fallen flat on your face.  Your math doesn't work, your trying to overturn Boyle's Law (NOT, I might add, Boyle's flippant observation about mixed gasses) with your commentary about Hydrogen being at a higher pressure than Ammonia in the same equilabrated vessel.

Are you denying this? Are you really suggesting that in an absorption refrigeration system, The ammonia does not expand and cool due to experiencing low pressure when combined with Hydrogen in a pressure equalized system? 

 Etc., etc., etc.

Oh, and if this is a schtick then your doing that wrong too since you're not convincing too many people.

If you see a poster by the name "Jet Black" and he comes by the thread with a one liner saying "Nope, won't work."  You might listen since he holds  PhD in physics.

There's a lot of educated and opinionated people on this board.  Ask questions, be a bit humble, because that the poster your conferring with might just hold the patent (or be the person who processed the patent) of the machine your talking about.



Well, I would put reading comprehension down as a first item.

Although details are a bitch, you have to not only read details but also convey details too.


What point are you trying to make exactly?

You do realize equilabrated and equalized are simply different forms of the same word and express the same identical concept don't you?

What point exactly are you trying to make by highlighting the word "equilabrated"?

I'll ask again: "Are you really suggesting that in an absorption refrigeration system, The ammonia does not expand and cool due to experiencing low pressure when combined with Hydrogen in a pressure equalized equilabrated system? "



Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #314
As can be seen in the diagram, the system consists entirely of interconnected pipes all at the same pressure but as the ammonia passes into the hydrogen the pressure of the ammonia drops to virtually zero, as if it were entering a vacuum, because the ammonia molecules can flow freely between the hydrogen molecules.


Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #315
Just in case anyone can't view the above attachment:


  • MikeS
Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #316
Just in case anyone can't view the above attachment:


Tom,
Does your assessment match what other researchers have modeled?  If not, why not?

THERMODYNAMIC STUDY OF DIFFUSION ABSORPTION REFRIGERATION SYSTEM WITH ORGANIC FLUID

Quote
The diffusion-absorption cycle utilizes ammonia-water-hydrogen
as working fluid. In this paper, a mathematical model has been established and solved
numerically. The model is based on the mass and energy conservation principles applied for
every components of the DAR system, through which the working fluids flow.
Equations have
been developed to estimate mass flow rate, mass concentration and enthalpy of different fluids
at various state points of the cycle by considering the mass balance and heat balance equations.
Suitable thermodynamic relations have been used for estimating enthalpies at various points
corresponding to their state properties of pressure, temperature and dryness fraction.

  • MikeS
Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #317
As can be seen in the diagram, the system consists entirely of interconnected pipes all at the same pressure but as the ammonia passes into the hydrogen the pressure of the ammonia drops to virtually zero, as if it were entering a vacuum, because the ammonia molecules can flow freely between the hydrogen molecules.

The pressures indicated in your drawing ("Ammonia Pressure < 1bar, Hydrogen Pressure 15bar) are partial pressures of each gas.  the Gas stream at that point is Hydrogen rich and very little gaseaus Ammonia is present, thus the low partial pressure.

Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #318
As can be seen in the diagram, the system consists entirely of interconnected pipes all at the same pressure but as the ammonia passes into the hydrogen the pressure of the ammonia drops to virtually zero, as if it were entering a vacuum, because the ammonia molecules can flow freely between the hydrogen molecules.

The pressures indicated in your drawing ("Ammonia Pressure < 1bar, Hydrogen Pressure 15bar) are partial pressures of each gas.  the Gas stream at that point is Hydrogen rich and very little gaseaus Ammonia is present, thus the low partial pressure.


Citation needed

Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #319

  • MikeS
Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #320
As can be seen in the diagram, the system consists entirely of interconnected pipes all at the same pressure but as the ammonia passes into the hydrogen the pressure of the ammonia drops to virtually zero, as if it were entering a vacuum, because the ammonia molecules can flow freely between the hydrogen molecules.

The pressures indicated in your drawing ("Ammonia Pressure < 1bar, Hydrogen Pressure 15bar) are partial pressures of each gas.  the Gas stream at that point is Hydrogen rich and very little gaseaus Ammonia is present, thus the low partial pressure.


Citation needed

THERMODYNAMIC STUDY OF DIFFUSION ABSORPTION REFRIGERATION SYSTEM WITH ORGANIC FLUID
Quote
The unique
feature of this cycle, as compared to a
conventional ammonia-water absorption
cycle, is that introduction of the auxiliary inert
gas plays its role to reduce the partial pressure
of the refrigerant in the evaporator
and allows
the refrigerant to evaporate at low temperatures
producing the cooling effect (Zohar and Jelinek,
2007).

 :smug:

Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #321
As can be seen in the diagram, the system consists entirely of interconnected pipes all at the same pressure but as the ammonia passes into the hydrogen the pressure of the ammonia drops to virtually zero, as if it were entering a vacuum, because the ammonia molecules can flow freely between the hydrogen molecules.

The pressures indicated in your drawing ("Ammonia Pressure < 1bar, Hydrogen Pressure 15bar) are partial pressures of each gas.  the Gas stream at that point is Hydrogen rich and very little gaseaus Ammonia is present, thus the low partial pressure.


Citation needed

THERMODYNAMIC STUDY OF DIFFUSION ABSORPTION REFRIGERATION SYSTEM WITH ORGANIC FLUID
Quote
The unique
feature of this cycle, as compared to a
conventional ammonia-water absorption
cycle, is that introduction of the auxiliary inert
gas plays its role to reduce the partial pressure
of the refrigerant in the evaporator
and allows
the refrigerant to evaporate at low temperatures
producing the cooling effect (Zohar and Jelinek,
2007).

 :smug:

Your reference does not support your statements nor does it refute mine. Otherwise it simply repeats known fact irrelevant to the discussion.

Not all of my assertions are 100% literally accurate, any more than the atomic model of the atom, but it helps in understanding how the ammonia is able to suddenly find itself free to change state and evaporate in the presence of the hydrogen. How it can exist at 1 bar in the same space as the hydrogen at 15 bar.

Your reference relates the fact there is partial pressure but explains nothing.

The ammonia expands into the hydrogen, as a result it cools, very much like water boiling at a low temperature when subject to low pressure.

How does liquid ammonia expand into a pipe, into a vacuum, into a space already filled with another gas at 15bar pressure?

For whatever reason there is room between the hydrogen molecules for the ammonia to change state and exspand. As-if it were released into a vacuum. That seems incredible to me.

Your statement and your reference do not explain anything.

Yes there is a partial pressure. There is no real explaination or answer as far as HOW or WHY that is possible from your statement or your reference and the reference does not contradict or refute anything I've already said. It only confirms it.




Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #322

Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #323
My only point in commenting on the Platen and Munters ammonia-water-hydrogen cycle refrigerator was that the expansion of the ammonia into the hydrogen is the functional equivalent of the expansion valve or Joule Thompson throttling valve in a vapor compression refrigerator.

A turbo-expander, expansion engine or a simple shop air-tool produce cooling by the same basic principle. A gas is compressed and heat removed, or simply lost, while under compression, to operate in a continuous cycle the compressed air is only partially held back by the refrigerator's expansion valve. As air, gas, ammonia or whatever refrigerant is compressed and cooled it is subsequently allowed to expand through a simple valve or a turbine or an expansion engine which serves the purpose of holding the gas back as it is compressed and its temperature elevated so the heat can be removed, and the valve or turbine or engine also allows the gas to escape and de-compress. If the gas, air, ammonia or refrigerant does work in an engine or turbine or air-tool as it expands it gets much much colder than it does by simple Joule-Thomson throttling through an expansion valve.

It is AFTER the gas escapes from the valve or engine or turbine or whatever; when the air escapes and is free to expand; that it does the job of really cooling in a refrigeration system. The same thing happens when ammonia "escapes" into the "low pressure" space occupied by hydrogen. This seems remarkable but it is not very different from water boiling in a pot with open air above it.

But the space isn't "Low Pressure". The system is of uniform pressure throughout.

At one time I read somewhere that this is like the demonstration where you have something like the ping-pong balls in a container. They are under "High Pressure" crammed into the container very tightly so that there is no more room for any more ping-pong balls. There could be so much pressure that the walls of the container are near to bursting open, but if some sand or buckshot or anything else much smaller than the ping-pong balls is introduced, it is as if there is all the room in the world and it passes straight through or can expand freely into the open spaces between the pin-pong balls.

Perhaps NORMALLY, at normal atmospheric pressure and temperature Ammonia is "Bigger" than Hydrogen, but under high pressure when the ammonia has condensed down to a liquid and the Hydrogen is still in a gaseous state, apparently the ammonia has condensed down "smaller" and can fit between the more expansive Hydrogen molecules.

That is the explanation I came across a long time ago after a great deal of study and research. It was the only explanation that satisfied my curiosity.

If it is actually wrong, and if there is actually a better more accurate explanation for the process I would certainly be glad to hear it. But so far I don't think I've gotten a better or more accurate explanation.

My main point of interest in all this is that the different types of refrigeration, though appearing quite different on the surface, actually work according to the same basic principle.


Quote
"The most familiar single pressure cycle is the ammonia-water-hydrogen cycle patented by Platen and Munters (1928), ...

  "The evaporator is perhaps the most interesting component of the system. Here the liquid ammonia is exposed to gaseous hydrogen, which lowers the partial pressure on the liquid ammonia.... Thus, the evaporator is essentially equivalent to the expansion valve in a dual pressure cycle...."

- Low Temperature and Cryogenic Refrigeration edited by Sadik Kakaç, M.R. Avelino, H.F. Smirnov pg 27

I'm really not too surprised that people find this hard to believe or doubt it could work that way.

Substances brought to the point of phase change by high pressure and/or low temperature behave in surprising ways, deviating significantly from an "Ideal Gas" as these substances are not "Ideal" under such conditions.

Ammonia, as we know it, as it comes in a bottle from the grocery store is about 70% water.

The ammonia that enters the hydrogen in a refrigeration system is nearly 100% PURE undiluted anhydrous liquid ammonia that has been distilled out of the ammonia/water mixture with heat.

I don't think it is accurate to say "the Gas stream at that point is Hydrogen rich and very little gaseaus Ammonia is present, thus the low partial pressure."

I don't think the partial pressure has anything to do with there only being a very little bit of ammonia there. There is pure, highly concentrated liquid ammonia "boiling" and expanding into the hydrogen gas at that point. Not because there is very little ammonia. It's because that is how these two gasses react together when compressed to 15 bar pressure.

Re: Tesla's heat engine (split from DDWFTTW)
Reply #324
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor