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Topic: How economically desperate (Read 1035 times) previous topic - next topic

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How economically desperate

  • el jefe
  • asleep till 2020 or 2024
Re: How economically desperate
Reply #1
I actually felt bad for the guy making terrible life decisions because he thinks Trump is going to bring back coal.  the US is to natural gas what saudi arabia is to oil and we have recently gotten good at extracting it cheaply.  even if obama, the clean power plan, and photovoltaics had never existed, the coal industry would still be utterly doomed.

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #2
I don't. I hope he dies of fentanyl.

  • el jefe
  • asleep till 2020 or 2024
Re: How economically desperate
Reply #3
I see a dumb sucker

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #4
I see a dumb sucker who voted for an autocrat because he is too lazy to learn something new

  • meepmeep
  • Administrator
  • zombiecat queen
Re: How economically desperate
Reply #5
I have a hard time feeling much empathy for people like this when I think about all the shit my dad had to go through to support a wife and 4 kids after moving to a country where he barely spoke the language at the age of 47. He went from working as an engineer in an office, wearing a nice suit and tie, to driving a truck at 4 am to make deliveries to supermarkets. No free job training, either.

But coal miners are too scared to learn any skill other than coal mining, and the world needs to accommodate them because of their feelings. And btw immigrants are lazy moochers and will never be truly American.

Yeah, fuck this shit.

  • el jefe
  • asleep till 2020 or 2024
Re: How economically desperate
Reply #6
yeah, it is a form a privilege (though they'd never recognize it as such) that they are being helped through the transition and even being coddled in their unwillingness to change, while most of the rest of the world (including many people in this country) are on their own and forced to adapt.

I still find it hard to sort out how to feel

I do sympathize with people in general who are scared by the ever-changing job market and honestly don't know what to do or how to have piece of mind.  I do NOT sympathize with people make a conscious choice not to adapt and then whine about feeling left behind.  still, I do feel sorry for people who are misinformed and think they are making good choices based on that misinformation, especially when nothing in their experience has said that education or adaptation are good things.  for christ's sake, these people are raised to believe that being a "simple man" is some heroic ideal.  how is even an honest, well-intentioned person supposed to find their way out of that mind-trap and learn about stuff like critical thinking?

 

  • tysixtus
  • TITS GUNS
Re: How economically desperate
Reply #7
There's a few things going on here.  One, almost all of these careers require the person to move.  Let's assume for a second that the laughable idea of coal miners learning to code -- guys who probably have not been in a classroom since they graduated high school -- somehow produces decent coders.  Let's also assume that these newly minted coders would be competitive not only against people 20+ years their junior with bachelors degrees and internships, but also Indian and Vietnamese and Russian outsourcing firms who are right now taking large chunks of work from American firms simply because they will work for cheap.  Let's pretend none of that exists, and these guys are ready for the job market.  There are no coding jobs in fucking Appalachia or rural PA.

Equally laughable is the idea of turning these guys into nurses.  Yes, an ex-coal miner is really going to go to school to learn how to wipe seniors' asses, while competing against people 20+ years their junior. 

So that natural gas thing -- that's a good idea! Except these guys have to move.  They don't want to move.  I don't blame them.

What is surprising to me is seeing people who would normally not champion the libertarian idea of "You need to pick up your whole fucking life and go where the jobs are!" sort of Randian absolutism if, say, we were talking about Latino immigrants or poor, working mothers.  But if it is poor white trash well, then, fuck em. Right?  Come on.  Stop it.  Though I do expect it from teeth because he is a weaselly racist. 

The whole fucking country cannot live on the coasts.  There is something to be said for wanting to live a simple life, not in a city, not crammed on top of every other fucking person, paying too much for rent and food and every other fucking thing.  It might seem quaint and bumpkin-ish to snobby liberals but please, realize how elitist this sounds.  There are millions of people who do not want to live in a city.  Crazy, I know!  Something must be wrong with those people.

Are they being stupid for holding out for coal jobs?  Sure.  Would I see this level of scorn if this story was about black folks in Detroit who were refusing retraining because they hoped the auto industry was going to return?  You all know the answer to that.  Quit being fucking jerks.

ETA: Teeth really is a stupid shitbag.
  • Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 05:19:44 PM by tysixtus

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #8
There's a few things going on here.  One, almost all of these careers require the person to move.  Let's assume for a second that the laughable idea of coal miners learning to code -- guys who probably have not been in a classroom since they graduated high school -- somehow produces decent coders.  Let's also assume that these newly minted coders would be competitive not only against people 20+ years their junior with bachelors degrees and internships, but also Indian and Vietnamese and Russian outsourcing firms who are right now taking large chunks of work from American firms simply because they will work for cheap.  Let's pretend none of that exists, and these guys are ready for the job market.  There are no coding jobs in fucking Appalachia or rural PA.

Equally laughable is the idea of turning these guys into nurses.  Yes, an ex-coal miner is really going to go to school to learn how to wipe seniors' asses, while competing against people 20+ years their junior. 

So that natural gas thing -- that's a good idea! Except these guys have to move.  They don't want to move.  I don't blame them.

What is surprising to me is seeing people who would normally not champion the libertarian idea of "You need to pick up your whole fucking life and go where the jobs are!" sort of Randian absolutism if, say, we were talking about Latino immigrants or poor, working mothers.  But if it is poor white trash well, then, fuck em. Right?  Come on.  Stop it.  Though I do expect it from teeth because he is a weaselly racist. 

The whole fucking country cannot live on the coasts.  There is something to be said for wanting to live a simple life, not in a city, not crammed on top of every other fucking person, paying too much for rent and food and every other fucking thing.  It might seem quaint and bumpkin-ish to snobby liberals but please, realize how elitist this sounds.  There are millions of people who do not want to live in a city.  Crazy, I know!  Something must be wrong with those people.

Are they being stupid for holding out for coal jobs?  Sure.  Would I see this level of scorn if this story was about black folks in Detroit who were refusing retraining because they hoped the auto industry was going to return?  You all know the answer to that.  Quit being fucking jerks.

ETA: Teeth really is a stupid shitbag.

I guess they do what Limbaugh said and start their own business if they don't want to move. Otherwise they'll just have to pray that some industry comes in and miraculously pays people $20/hr to push a button.

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #9
I agree with those saying fuck these entitled snowflakes.

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #10
Would I see this level of scorn if this story was about black folks in Detroit who were refusing retraining because they hoped the auto industry was going to return?  You all know the answer to that.  Quit being fucking jerks.

ETA: Teeth really is a stupid shitbag.

Did these black folks vote for an insane rage clown who promised to fuck everyone who doesn't look like them and grab all the pussy?

  • tysixtus
  • TITS GUNS
Re: How economically desperate
Reply #11
Would I see this level of scorn if this story was about black folks in Detroit who were refusing retraining because they hoped the auto industry was going to return?  You all know the answer to that.  Quit being fucking jerks.

ETA: Teeth really is a stupid shitbag.

Did these black folks vote for an insane rage clown who promised to fuck everyone who doesn't look like them and grab all the pussy?

Wait, do you mean Obama?  :911:

ETA: But your question really has nothing to do with anything.

ETA#2: Everyone's scorn for white trash aside, my last point stands, which is that the whole fucking country cannot live in 5 major cities.  We do need to figure out a way to keep -- or bring back -- viable industry to those areas, simply because people live there, and we cannot expect everyone to pick up and move and, anyway, there's plenty of value in having them there.
  • Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 06:04:36 PM by tysixtus

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #12
Of course it does.  If these "black people from Detroit" props of yours voted for a huckster promising them jobs that wouldn't exist while also promising to keep out Muslims and Mexicans, I also would not have sympathy for them. 

  • meepmeep
  • Administrator
  • zombiecat queen
Re: How economically desperate
Reply #13
"You need to pick up your whole fucking life and go where the jobs are!"

That's exactly what my family did, and plenty of people hate us for it.

The whole fucking country cannot live on the coasts.  There is something to be said for wanting to live a simple life, not in a city, not crammed on top of every other fucking person, paying too much for rent and food and every other fucking thing.  It might seem quaint and bumpkin-ish to snobby liberals but please, realize how elitist this sounds.  There are millions of people who do not want to live in a city.  Crazy, I know!  Something must be wrong with those people.

There's a cost to not living in a city just as much as there's a cost to living in a city. It's not elitist to point out that some ways of life aren't fucking possible anymore unless people adapt. As much as I might like to live out in the countryside, my industry barely exists outside of cities and suburbia, so that's not even an option and that's fucking reality.

The guy at the beginning of that article is 33. 33 is not too fucking old to learn how to do something different. They have training programs for all sorts of things, not just coding. Pretty sure manly men with their fragile masculinity can handle taking a course to get their commercial driver's license or learn how to operate heavy machinery.

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #14
I thought the ├žoal miners were heavy machinery operator types

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #15
"You need to pick up your whole fucking life and go where the jobs are!"

That's exactly what my family did, and plenty of people hate us for it.

The whole fucking country cannot live on the coasts.  There is something to be said for wanting to live a simple life, not in a city, not crammed on top of every other fucking person, paying too much for rent and food and every other fucking thing.  It might seem quaint and bumpkin-ish to snobby liberals but please, realize how elitist this sounds.  There are millions of people who do not want to live in a city.  Crazy, I know!  Something must be wrong with those people.

There's a cost to not living in a city just as much as there's a cost to living in a city. It's not elitist to point out that some ways of life aren't fucking possible anymore unless people adapt. As much as I might like to live out in the countryside, my industry barely exists outside of cities and suburbia, so that's not even an option and that's fucking reality.

The guy at the beginning of that article is 33. 33 is not too fucking old to learn how to do something different. They have training programs for all sorts of things, not just coding. Pretty sure manly men with their fragile masculinity can handle taking a course to get their commercial driver's license or learn how to operate heavy machinery.

But he's a coal miner, and they are apparently inherently dumb and incapable of learning new skills.

  • tysixtus
  • TITS GUNS
Re: How economically desperate
Reply #16
Of course it does.  If these "black people from Detroit" props of yours voted for a huckster promising them jobs that wouldn't exist while also promising to keep out Muslims and Mexicans, I also would not have sympathy for them. 

Well you wouldn't, because you're you.  And that's fine.

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #17
Also, there are way more than 5 places in the US to participate in the modern economy, and most of them aren't vast concrete jungles. I am living in one of them. It is only a few minutes from where the buffalo roam and seldom is heard a discouraging word.

  • tysixtus
  • TITS GUNS
Re: How economically desperate
Reply #18
Also, there are way more than 5 places in the US to participate in the modern economy, and most of them aren't vast concrete jungles. I am living in one of them. It is only a few minutes from where the buffalo roam and seldom is heard a discouraging word.

Okay.  So what if there is 20, or 50? There's millions of out of work people who are tied to their communities through a variety of ways.  Is it reasonable to expect them to pick up and move?

  • tysixtus
  • TITS GUNS
Re: How economically desperate
Reply #19
These are all very conservative arguments, by the way.  "They need to move where the jobs are, my parents did it!!"  "They need to learn new skills, this is the way of new economy!!"  "If they don't like it, they can just move!!"

Glad to see you guys coming along.  :smug:

  • meepmeep
  • Administrator
  • zombiecat queen
Re: How economically desperate
Reply #20
I bring up my parents because the demographic we're talking about is full of people who think we're lazy moochers who steal jobs. You shouldn't have to move thousands of miles to provide a future for your children, but if my parents were willing to make that sacrifice and take that risk, yeah, it's hard for me to feel heartbroken over people who won't take a free course to become a line technician or welder or carpenter because they have an emotional connection to a dying industry that no one on earth can possibly bring back. At some point, denial turns into delusion, and if you refuse all the help other people are offering you, at some point it's on your fucking shoulders.

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #21
Also, there are way more than 5 places in the US to participate in the modern economy, and most of them aren't vast concrete jungles. I am living in one of them. It is only a few minutes from where the buffalo roam and seldom is heard a discouraging word.

Okay.  So what if there is 20, or 50? There's millions of out of work people who are tied to their communities through a variety of ways.  Is it reasonable to expect them to pick up and move?

If we're not going to have a society that looks after everyone's needs, and not just those of country lovin' white people, then yes it is reasonable.

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #22
80,000 coal miners.
https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Coal_and_jobs_in_the_United_States

Earning mainly $60K-$80K a year.
https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/coal-miner-salary-SRCH_KO0,10.htm

Call it $70K. Works out to $5.6 billion/year to cover their salaries.

In 2016, about 4.08 trillion kilowatthours (kWh) of electricity were generated at utility-scale facilities in the United States.
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

So, a electricity tax of a little more than a 10th of a cent per kWh could pay for it. This amount can also be compared to direct subsidies to other sectors of the US energy industry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidies

Looks like the US could afford it fairly easily by the usual means.

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #23
There's a few things going on here.  One, almost all of these careers require the person to move.  Let's assume for a second that the laughable idea of coal miners learning to code -- guys who probably have not been in a classroom since they graduated high school -- somehow produces decent coders.  Let's also assume that these newly minted coders would be competitive not only against people 20+ years their junior with bachelors degrees and internships, but also Indian and Vietnamese and Russian outsourcing firms who are right now taking large chunks of work from American firms simply because they will work for cheap.  Let's pretend none of that exists, and these guys are ready for the job market.  There are no coding jobs in fucking Appalachia or rural PA.

Equally laughable is the idea of turning these guys into nurses.  Yes, an ex-coal miner is really going to go to school to learn how to wipe seniors' asses, while competing against people 20+ years their junior. 

So that natural gas thing -- that's a good idea! Except these guys have to move.  They don't want to move.  I don't blame them.

What is surprising to me is seeing people who would normally not champion the libertarian idea of "You need to pick up your whole fucking life and go where the jobs are!" sort of Randian absolutism if, say, we were talking about Latino immigrants or poor, working mothers.  But if it is poor white trash well, then, fuck em. Right?  Come on.  Stop it.  Though I do expect it from teeth because he is a weaselly racist. 

The whole fucking country cannot live on the coasts.  There is something to be said for wanting to live a simple life, not in a city, not crammed on top of every other fucking person, paying too much for rent and food and every other fucking thing.  It might seem quaint and bumpkin-ish to snobby liberals but please, realize how elitist this sounds.  There are millions of people who do not want to live in a city.  Crazy, I know!  Something must be wrong with those people.

Are they being stupid for holding out for coal jobs?  Sure.  Would I see this level of scorn if this story was about black folks in Detroit who were refusing retraining because they hoped the auto industry was going to return?  You all know the answer to that.  Quit being fucking jerks.

ETA: Teeth really is a stupid shitbag.
I guess living in a declining coal town or living in a coastal city paying too much for rent and food and every other fucking thing are the only two options. Sucks that we live in a cartoon world of absolutes instead of some kind of world filled with nuance and shades of gray.

  • meepmeep
  • Administrator
  • zombiecat queen
Re: How economically desperate
Reply #24
But he's a coal miner, and they are apparently inherently dumb and incapable of learning new skills.

I guess I rather enjoy being a snobby, elitist, coastal liberal who thinks the poor noble white savage is actually capable of learning new things and isn't too blinded by emotion, identity politics, and ideology to take advantage of very real opportunities.

Anyway, I was only half-joking about fragile masculinity. The reality is that in a lot of these places, healthcare is one of the only remaining viable sectors that more importantly has a wide variety of positions to accommodate people with different levels of education and training, and the more that men cling to this dumbass idea that the healthcare professions are girly and that the only manly things a manly man can do are jobs like mining, the more they're going to suffer, but whatever, have fun, fellas.