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Topic: How economically desperate (Read 927 times) previous topic - next topic

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Re: How economically desperate
Reply #50
There are probably 20+ towns like this in AZ alone. A few of them 'survive' with minimal population by having a little bit of tourist 'ghost town' thing going on, but there are towns that are literally nothing more than a few buildings anymore.

I've had to move x-country multiple times for work, so these assholes can just suck it up and go where the work is. Maybe it will do them some good to get out and be exposed to, you know, different people and ways of thinking.

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #51
Because its their god-given right to have a high paying stable employer in their holler

Maybe.

Otoh, maybe all they need is to see some of their peers do it

Well it sure worked for fentanyl.

  • SkepticTank
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Re: How economically desperate
Reply #52
There are probably 20+ towns like this in AZ alone. A few of them 'survive' with minimal population by having a little bit of tourist 'ghost town' thing going on, but there are towns that are literally nothing more than a few buildings anymore.

I've had to move x-country multiple times for work, so these assholes can just suck it up and go where the work is. Maybe it will do them some good to get out and be exposed to, you know, different people and ways of thinking.

They are cool places to explore on the motorcycle.

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #53
Yeah they are. Just to be contrary though, moving across the country for work is a pretty privileged ability. The resources needed for that are substantially more than are available to most poor families.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #54
Not really. The investment for working in these camps is minimal and much of the travel to the job site is paid for. Furthermore, the housing on-site is often provided with all amenities, so there isn't the cost of setting up a home or moving a home.

  • borealis
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Re: How economically desperate
Reply #55
Yeah they are. Just to be contrary though, moving across the country for work is a pretty privileged ability. The resources needed for that are substantially more than are available to most poor families.

No. Those big projects need skilled workers, even newly trained ones, and they pay travel and usually lodging and meals. Get remote enough and there are camps set up, everything is provided. I doubt the states are so much different than Canada; it's the same damn corporations. Mr b has been working this way for 20+ years, he has never paid for travel or lodging and has a union daily rate for food.

Lack of unionisation may be a problem for some of these guys, but the trade unions are there for them to join. Of course they are likely brainwashed against unions.


  • RAFH
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Re: How economically desperate
Reply #56
Yeah they are. Just to be contrary though, moving across the country for work is a pretty privileged ability. The resources needed for that are substantially more than are available to most poor families.

No. Those big projects need skilled workers, even newly trained ones, and they pay travel and usually lodging and meals. Get remote enough and there are camps set up, everything is provided. I doubt the states are so much different than Canada; it's the same damn corporations. Mr b has been working this way for 20+ years, he has never paid for travel or lodging and has a union daily rate for food.

Lack of unionisation may be a problem for some of these guys, but the trade unions are there for them to join. Of course they are likely brainwashed against unions. 

I believe the coal miners were among the first to go union, right after the railroads.
Are we there yet?

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #57
Yeah they are. Just to be contrary though, moving across the country for work is a pretty privileged ability. The resources needed for that are substantially more than are available to most poor families.

No. Those big projects need skilled workers, even newly trained ones, and they pay travel and usually lodging and meals. Get remote enough and there are camps set up, everything is provided. I doubt the states are so much different than Canada; it's the same damn corporations. Mr b has been working this way for 20+ years, he has never paid for travel or lodging and has a union daily rate for food.

Lack of unionisation may be a problem for some of these guys, but the trade unions are there for them to join. Of course they are likely brainwashed against unions.


apparently we are talking about different things altogether. WT didn't get his moves paid for exactly and the camps aren't employing a brand new 30 million people.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • borealis
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Re: How economically desperate
Reply #58
WT isn't a trade worker afaik. Where are you getting 30 million from?

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #59
WT isn't a trade worker afaik. Where are you getting 30 million from?
My head. That's just to point out that we're talking about different things. Trades that move people aren't options for the bulk of poor people and probably aren't good options socially anyway.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • borealis
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Re: How economically desperate
Reply #60
WT isn't a trade worker afaik. Where are you getting 30 million from?
My head. That's just to point out that we're talking about different things. Trades that move people aren't options for the bulk of poor people and probably aren't good options socially anyway.

We were talking about coal miners though, which were good paying jobs - these guys were not 'poor people' until the mines started closing down. They weren't pick and shovel jobs either, this is modern mining using lots of sophisticated machines mostly operated with buttons and gearshifts and dials.

And trades that move people temporarily aren't horrible socially ime. Are there trade-offs? Sure, But there are also advantages.

  • MikeS
Re: How economically desperate
Reply #61
WT isn't a trade worker afaik. Where are you getting 30 million from?
My head. That's just to point out that we're talking about different things. Trades that move people aren't options for the bulk of poor people and probably aren't good options socially anyway.
Many oil patch jobs have people travel in and leave their family behind.  Western North Dakota, Northern Alberta, North Slope, Gulf of Mexico rigs; and this is repeated around the world in first world countries.  Lodging is in camps or haphazard near the job for the worker.  They then either plan on eventually saving enough to move the family nearer or work remote and vacation back home.

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #62
But when they move the family real estate has skyrocketed and then in the next downturn you have people owning devalued housing stock. Boom/bust

  • borealis
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Re: How economically desperate
Reply #63
Yeah, that's why having the workers travel is better for the families and communities. The money comes back to the community and the family isn't disrupted by a move to a strange place where they may not even stay long.

These mega projects are mostly finite - it takes a few months or years to complete initial phases, and following phases may need far fewer workers. Having a home community to return to is important for stability. Many of these jobs are two weeks on, one week off, with the employer paying for travel, Some have longer stints, often because it's a smaller job, or very time constrained.

Literally thousands of people live this way, and it works well for families. The people it doesn't work well for are younger single workers who don't save any money and just buy expensive shit, party, gamble, drink and drug like idiots in their time off.

  • MikeS
Re: How economically desperate
Reply #64
The people it doesn't work well for are younger single workers who don't save any money and just buy expensive shit, party, gamble, drink and drug like idiots in their time off.
It's not just younger workers.  Or single.  Many families are left in the cold while dad basically sends them the equivalent of child care money and keeps the rest for his bitches and blow.  He stays married for the tax write-off and keeps any tax return.

  • borealis
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Re: How economically desperate
Reply #65
Well he sounds like a right bastard his family is better off without.

I know a good many families living with this style of employment (probably a third of the people I know). I've known maybe two where something like your scenario happened.

  • Fenrir
Re: How economically desperate
Reply #66
Quote
Literally thousands of people live this way, and it works well for families.

For certain well defined values of well.

I've been doing it on and off for 10 years. I have the small advantage in that I work in lots of different places on lots of differing projects.

The average fifo (fly in, fly out) lasts 18 months here and their suicide rate, divorce rate and general incidence of mental illness is well above the average.

It's really great when you feel like you are living in someone elses house and someone elses life, specially when they are your spouse and kids.  :sadcheer:
It's what plants crave.

  • borealis
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Re: How economically desperate
Reply #67
Quote
Literally thousands of people live this way, and it works well for families.

For certain well defined values of well.

I've been doing it on and off for 10 years. I have the small advantage in that I work in lots of different places on lots of differing projects.

The average fifo (fly in, fly out) lasts 18 months here and their suicide rate, divorce rate and general incidence of mental illness is well above the average.

It's really great when you feel like you are living in someone elses house and someone elses life, specially when they are your spouse and kids.  :sadcheer:

18 months sounds way too long. Here iirc there are regulations regarding workers far from their homes having off time to go home regularly. In 20+ years the longest my husband has been away was three months, and that was very early on. Since then it's all been 2 or 3 weeks on, 7 to 10 days off, and that's been in 8 different provinces plus for several years he worked quite a lot offshore building compression platforms. (He quit doing offshore work because he really hates helicopters and hates the biannual helicopter crash survival training even more.)

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #68
WT isn't a trade worker afaik. Where are you getting 30 million from?
My head. That's just to point out that we're talking about different things. Trades that move people aren't options for the bulk of poor people and probably aren't good options socially anyway.
Many oil patch jobs have people travel in and leave their family behind.  Western North Dakota, Northern Alberta, North Slope, Gulf of Mexico rigs; and this is repeated around the world in first world countries.  Lodging is in camps or haphazard near the job for the worker.  They then either plan on eventually saving enough to move the family nearer or work remote and vacation back home.
I get that. But those jobs aren't hiring all of unemployed Appalachia.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • borealis
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Re: How economically desperate
Reply #69
Some's better than none.

I dunno, I grew up (and still live) in the chronically underemployed actual tail end of the Appalachians. Everybody understood that you'd be very lucky to get a good job close to home. Everybody understood you had to be proactive about working, and you just accepted that you might have to move away. You might just have to move to the mainland, or to the nearest city, or you might have to move to Ontario, or out West, or even up North. Sociology and anthropology theses have been written about our migrant population. Provincial politicians have said mean things about us as ignorant migrants to their provinces. This has been ongoing for 60, 70 years and longer. Goin' to work in the Boston States. Goin' down the road to Toronto. Heading out to Fort Mac. Natural state of being.

  • Fenrir
Re: How economically desperate
Reply #70
Quote
Literally thousands of people live this way, and it works well for families.

For certain well defined values of well.

I've been doing it on and off for 10 years. I have the small advantage in that I work in lots of different places on lots of differing projects.

The average fifo (fly in, fly out) lasts 18 months here and their suicide rate, divorce rate and general incidence of mental illness is well above the average.

It's really great when you feel like you are living in someone elses house and someone elses life, specially when they are your spouse and kids.  :sadcheer:

18 months sounds way too long. Here iirc there are regulations regarding workers far from their homes having off time to go home regularly. In 20+ years the longest my husband has been away was three months, and that was very early on. Since then it's all been 2 or 3 weeks on, 7 to 10 days off, and that's been in 8 different provinces plus for several years he worked quite a lot offshore building compression platforms. (He quit doing offshore work because he really hates helicopters and hates the biannual helicopter crash survival training even more.)

I didn't say 18 months straight. The average time people stick at it is 18 months.

2 and one is common. 3 and 1 not that uncommon. 2 and 2 often the prized roster, not very common though.
  • Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 09:24:42 PM by Fenrir
It's what plants crave.

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Re: How economically desperate
Reply #71
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/08/donald-trump-johnstown-pennsylvania-supporters-215800

Quote
When I asked Del Signore about the past year here, he said he "didn't see any change because we got a new president." He nonetheless remains an ardent proponent. "He's our answer."

I asked Schilling what would happen if the next three years go the way the last one has.

"I'm not going to blame him," Schilling said. "Absolutely not."

Is there anything that could change her mind about Trump?

"Nope," she said.

Quote
"Everybody I talk to," he said, "realizes it's not Trump who's dragging his feet. Trump's probably the most diligent, hardest-working president we've ever had in our lifetimes. It's not like he sleeps in till noon and goes golfing every weekend, like the last president did."

I stopped him, informing him that, yes, Barack Obama liked to golf, but Trump in fact does golf a lot, too--more, in fact.

Del Signore was surprised to hear this.

"Does he?" he said.

"Yes," I said.

He did not linger on this topic, smiling and changing the subject with a quip. "If I was married to his wife," Del Signore said, "I don't think I'd go anywhere."

:stare:

Quote
Del Signore said he's been following politics far more than before because of Trump. Trump, he said, is just "more interesting." So now he likes watching the news. "Ninety-nine percent of the time I watch Fox," he said. "Sometimes I'll be sitting there listening to all this Fox stuff, and I'll say, 'Maybe they aren't right, maybe I'll flip to CNN'--but every time I've found that Fox has been correct, and CNN is definitely fake news."

A Catholic whose wife goes to church every Sunday whereas he, "shame on me," does not, Del Signore told me toward the end of our lunch that some people at church told his wife that Obama is the antichrist. "She comes home and tells me these things that they tell you in church," he said. I asked him if that's what he thinks. "I don't know," he said. "Some people say that."

:stare:

Quote
Next to Bala was a gray-haired man who told me he voted for Trump and was happy so far because "he's kept his promises."

I asked which ones.

"Border security." But there's no wall yet. "No fault of his," the man said.

What else? "Getting rid of Obamacare." But he hasn't. "Well, he's tried to."

What else? "Defunding Planned Parenthood." But he didn't. "Not his fault again," the man said.

Quote
"You're not a fan of equality?" I asked.

"For people who deserve it and earn it," he said. "All my ancestors, Italian, 100-percent Italian, the Irish, Germans, Polish, whatever--they all came over here, settled in places like this, they worked hard and they earned the respect. They earned the success that they got. Some people don't want to do that. They just want it handed to them."

"Like NFL players?" I said.

"Well," Del Signore responded, "I hate to say what the majority of them are ..." He stopped himself short of what I thought he was about to say.

Schilling and her husband, however, did not restrain themselves.

"The thing that irritates me to no end is this NFL shit," Schilling told me in her living room. "I'm about ready to go over the top with this shit. We do not watch no NFL now." They're Dallas Cowboys fans. "We banned 'em. We don't watch it."

Schilling looked at her husband, Dave McCabe, who's 67 and a retired high school basketball coach. She nodded at me. "Tell him," she said to McCabe, "what you said the NFL is ..."

McCabe looked momentarily wary. He laughed a little. "I don't remember saying that," he said unconvincingly.

Schilling was having none of it. "You're the one that told me, liar," she said.

She looked at me.

The NFL?

"Niggers for life," Schilling said.

"For life," McCabe added.

:golfclap:

Re: How economically desperate
Reply #72
lolfuk
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • MikeS
Re: How economically desperate
Reply #73

  • ksen
Re: How economically desperate
Reply #74
 :smithicide: