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Topic: I've returned to Jesus (Read 590 times) previous topic - next topic

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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #25
Anglicans aren't much given to pictures of Jesus either. These four, with which I am very familiar, sport a small  plain wooden cross on the altar, except one, which was made a century ago and is made from twisty apple tree branches. At the back you'll find some old framed certificates concerning very old churchly affairs. Three have some stained glass, one has none. Two have walls and ceilings covered in painted embossed tin, the others have plain wood walls, one of those has ship knees holding up the roof and otherwise was obviously made by wooden ship carpenters.

One of the oldest windows depicts the most supercilious looking Moses with the tablets I've ever seen, wearing the flowiest of robes down to his demurely crossed ankles. He's definitely in or on his way to heaven, as he appears to be floating in air. I love it, it is delicately painted, Moses' flowing mustache and beard are well brushed, every hair in its place.

However, they dress the altar richly according to church seasons, in green or red or blue or white brocades, a bit gaudy, some of my UCoC and all of my Gospel Hall relations would think. :D

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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #26
Sleep well, b.
You also.

I gotta get up early and go sing to these friends.

  • MikeS
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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #27
But some of us, possibly quite a lot of us, are not seemingly able to believe, and many who seemingly believe also seem to be not very friendly or giving or loving at all.
:sadyes:  Y'all gotz the Satan mud on ur eyes. The same thing happened to the dinosaurs.
Why do I get the impression of you as the starring role in Father Ted.

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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #28
But some of us, possibly quite a lot of us, are not seemingly able to believe, and many who seemingly believe also seem to be not very friendly or giving or loving at all.
:sadyes:  Y'all gotz the Satan mud on ur eyes. The same thing happened to the dinosaurs.
If ya iz goin' to worship something, Satan is not too bad. Far less body count than Yahweh, AND a respect for knowledge and learning. Don't care about foreskins neither.
Believer in High Powers, and naturally, logarithms.
Pikkiwoki is the one true god.

  • grit
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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #29
But some of us, possibly quite a lot of us, are not seemingly able to believe, and many who seemingly believe also seem to be not very friendly or giving or loving at all.
:sadyes:  Y'all gotz the Satan mud on ur eyes. The same thing happened to the dinosaurs.
If ya iz goin' to worship something, Satan is not too bad. Far less body count than Yahweh, AND a respect for knowledge and learning. Don't care about foreskins neither.
Now, Dougal, Satan is the one who invented bad, and just where is it you think foreskins go when they die?

  • VoxRat
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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #30
... and just where is it you think foreskins go when they die?
A lot of them go into biomedical research.
They're a favorite source of human fibroblasts.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • Brother Daniel
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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #31
Gretta Vosper
On some old threads, we've seen references before to "atheist churches".  They're usually independent things.  Doing that sort of thing within a Christian denomination is quite unusual.

In principle (one could argue), there shouldn't be anything particularly weird about having a minister who happens to be an atheist.  Religion shouldn't be about belief.

On the other hand, judging from that Star article, one gets the impression that Vosper has separated herself from the whole Christian story/symbol framework.  Which raises the question of why she'd even want to remain affiliated with the UCoC.

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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #32
Quote from: grit
Well there's the situation... with a name like "Boo", one must expect the jarring of public appearances. That's why one should probably think twice before naming their child Raspberry, Catcall, or MockingJay, even if one enjoys the movies.
Imagine the potential noise level when bringing Torpedo Girl to church.  Might accidentally demolish the whole place.

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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #33
True story -

My brother's church had a family who joined the church, and it was soon after the church built their first meeting structure. This new family gave the church some artwork for the new place - a classic picture of Jesus wouldn't you know it. It was refused. I don't know much of the details, but the family left over it.
The following is also a true story (from when I was still going to a Baptist church).  I've told it before, but anyway:


How I Kidnapped Jesus

There was a banquet, for an anniversary celebration, in the church's basement.  I left my table, having eaten in a hurry, and crept upstairs.

I fetched a key and opened the hatch in the ceiling of the baptism tank.  Then it was time to fetch the portrait of Jesus from the foyer.

Removing the portrait was my gift to Pastor Allenby.  [Not his real name.]  He didn't like it.  He had even proposed to have it removed but had been overruled by the Board of Deacons.  This way, it would be gone, but the pastor would be innocent of any complicity.

I hadn't thought much about the portrait until Mr. Allenby made a reference to it in the middle of a sermon.  I don't recall what point he was making at the time, but he compared the image to "a guy from a shampoo commercial".

You have probably seen the same image.  With a little help from Google, I find that it's called "Head of Christ", and was painted by Warner Sallman in 1940.

I surmised, after some discreet enquiries, that Mr. Allenby's real issue with the portrait was the whiteness or European-ness of the image.  He had a multicultural sensitivity, appropriate for the pastor of a multi-ethnic congregation.  But in Sallman's image, Jesus has clearly European features, fair skin, and long flowing shiny fair hair.

And why did the Deacons insist on leaving the portrait in the foyer?  It had been donated, and there was always the possibility that the donor might return one day, and might be hurt if it were no longer there.

No one in the congregation knew the donor.  To the best of anyone's knowledge, he, or she, had not appeared in that church for thirty years.

So I removed it, with some difficulty, and carried it awkwardly down the length of the sanctuary.  I told myself then that I ought to have measured it first.  I had never really noticed how large it was.

There was an awkward moment as I approached the hatch.  The width of the portrait barely fit diagonally into the opening.  I pushed it through, and followed it up the ladder that was built into the side of the tank.  I groped around in the dark, among the organ pipes, until I found what seemed to be a suitable place to leave the portrait.

Down the ladder again, I closed the hatch, returned the organist's key, and crept back downstairs to rejoin the banquet.

No one questioned the removal of the portrait for some time.  Someone created a banner, with a scriptural quotation, to replace it.

But a few months later, the organist was up among the pipes for the sake of routine maintenance, and he found the portrait of Jesus.

Word spread.  The unilateral removal of the image was widely condemned as an unacceptable violation of proper procedure.  But the portrait was never restored to its former place.

  • grit
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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #34
On the other hand, judging from that Star article, one gets the impression that Vosper has separated herself from the whole Christian story/symbol framework.  Which raises the question of why she'd even want to remain affiliated with the UCoC.
Tax breaks from Johnny Canuck?

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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #35
Gretta Vosper
On some old threads, we've seen references before to "atheist churches".  They're usually independent things.  Doing that sort of thing within a Christian denomination is quite unusual.

In principle (one could argue), there shouldn't be anything particularly weird about having a minister who happens to be an atheist.  Religion shouldn't be about belief.

On the other hand, judging from that Star article, one gets the impression that Vosper has separated herself from the whole Christian story/symbol framework.  Which raises the question of why she'd even want to remain affiliated with the UCoC.
UCoC is pretty open to liberal interpretation of doctrine. There may be an upside for the UCoC as well - a congregation can know that their minister is a believer or not. Most are. But in other denominations, congregations may not know. I am almost certain one of the former priests in this parish was if not atheist, at least agnostic, and perhaps the people had a right to know that.

I won't even take communion, because although I don't think it has a 'good' meaning for me, many of the congregation have strong beliefs and I want to respect the ritual because of that. So if the officiant that is delivering the Eucharist has no convictions about it, is it fair that they don't know? Not that it makes a difference to their receiving it, but the dishonesty of it bothers me a little.

Also affiliation probably includes many different kinds of administrative support for her, the congregation, and the building.

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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #36
On the other hand, judging from that Star article, one gets the impression that Vosper has separated herself from the whole Christian story/symbol framework.  Which raises the question of why she'd even want to remain affiliated with the UCoC.
Tax breaks from Johnny Canuck?
They could get the same tax breaks as an established independent congregation.

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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #37
Speculating cynically, UCoC hierarchy may also be looking to the future. All denominations are bleeding members, and therefore financial contributions. Vesper appears to be successful, and if that kind of community is something people want (and I think many do), keeping atheist/agnostic congregations within the big tent may be a life saver for the denomination in the long run.

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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #38
But a few months later, the organist was up among the pipes for the sake of routine maintenance, and he found the portrait of Jesus.

Word spread.  The unilateral removal of the image was widely condemned as an unacceptable violation of proper procedure.  But the portrait was never restored to its former place.

Here in the South rumour would have spread that Jesus got tired of being gawked at and removed himself to the organ chamber for privacy and music appreciation.

  • grit
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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #39
The unilateral removal of the image was widely condemned as an unacceptable violation of proper procedure.  But the portrait was never restored to its former place.

And Pastor Allenby went on to be hailed as no simple orator, but a man who acted on his convictions.

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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #40
Sallman's Jesus painting has had overwhelming influence on Christians. For decades any visual interpretation that varied even a little from Euro-Christ was greeted with general disfavour. It's still the default image most people conjure up when they think of Jesus.

  • VoxRat
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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #41
Sallman's Jesus painting has had overwhelming influence on Christians. For decades any visual interpretation that varied even a little from Euro-Christ was greeted with general disfavour. It's still the default image most people conjure up when they think of Jesus.
:barf:

It certainly isn't mine.
But I can't really remember what my childhood image of JC was.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #42
Mine was formed when my dad asked my friend whether jesus or superman was stronger.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #43
I'm sure some of us remember this TV special:

Quote
In 2001, the television series Son of God used one of three first-century Jewish skulls from a leading department of forensic science in Israel to depict Jesus in a new way.[72] A face was constructed using forensic anthropology by Richard Neave, a retired medical artist from the Unit of Art in Medicine at the University of Manchester.[73] The face that Neave constructed suggested that Jesus would have had a broad face and large nose, and differed significantly from the traditional depictions of Jesus in renaissance art.[74] Additional information about Jesus' skin color and hair was provided by Mark Goodacre, a New Testament scholar and professor at Duke University.[74] Using third-century images from a synagogue--the earliest pictures of Jewish people[75]--Goodacre proposed that Jesus' skin color would have been darker and swarthier than his traditional Western image. He also suggested that he would have had short, curly hair and a short cropped beard.[76] This is also confirmed in the First Epistle to the Corinthians, where Paul the Apostle states that it is "disgraceful" for a man to have long hair.[77] As Paul knew many of the disciples and members of Jesus' family, it is unlikely that he would have written such a thing had Jesus had long hair.[76] Although not literally the face of Jesus,[73] the result of the study determined that Jesus' skin would have been more olive-colored than white,[74] and that he would have looked like a typical Galilean Semite. Among the points made was that the Bible records that Jesus's disciple Judas had to point him out to those arresting him in Gethsemane. The implied argument is that if Jesus's physical appearance had differed markedly from his disciples, then he would have been relatively easy to identify.[76]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depiction_of_Jesus


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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #44
Sallman's Jesus painting has had overwhelming influence on Christians. For decades any visual interpretation that varied even a little from Euro-Christ was greeted with general disfavour. It's still the default image most people conjure up when they think of Jesus.
:barf:

It certainly isn't mine.
But I can't really remember what my childhood image of JC was.

I'm not sure it deserves upchucking. :)

It's an insipid generic 'handsome long-haired man with a beard' by the standards of Sallman's era. But early depictions of Jesus varied considerably through time and according to what culture produced them. Sallman's is no different in that sense.

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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #45
I'm not sure it deserves upchucking. :)

I guess you're right...
Viewed in isolation, if I had no idea what this anonymous guy was supposed to represent, I don't suppose I'd have that reaction.
It's the associations over the years, coupled with the ethnic implications, that provoke a gag reflex.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #46


I like Titian's treatment
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #47
I'm not sure it deserves upchucking. :)

I guess you're right...
Viewed in isolation, if I had no idea what this anonymous guy was supposed to represent, I don't suppose I'd have that reaction.
It's the associations over the years, coupled with the ethnic implications, that provoke a gag reflex.
Understood. My main point is that the 'ethnic implications' of jesus images were and to an extent still are directly related to the dominant culture of the region in which they're produced. Chinese Christian painters produced distinctly Chinese looking Christ images. Here's a centuries old Ethiopian Christ image:



You're triggered by Salman's image and its copiers because that's what you grew up with, but it is, imo, a very small part of the cultural divides in America.

  • grit
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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #48
He left us some DNA samples. I'm pretty sure.

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Re: I've returned to Jesus
Reply #49
He left us some DNA samples. I'm pretty sure.
I so hope you aren't referring to the Shroud of Turin, Grit. You know how well I love ya, but that there piece of cloth has been hyped up by Rome since the fifteenth century and the television industry since the 20th century. It was created in an age where you could measure the weight of bits of the True Cross in tons, and saintly relics such as 97 toes of Saint John and the like were bartered around amongst pilgrims and churches all across Europe.

People have marvelled at how it couldn't have been made by a human artist, but in fact it would be one of the easier items to manufacture. You just have to talk to some artists.

perhaps you had something else in mind, though.