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Topic: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . . (Read 337 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • ksen
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In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
. . . a feminism thread.

I'm Done Pretending Men Are Safe (Even My Sons)

Quote
I know I'm not supposed to cast an entire sex with a single paint brush -- not all men, I'm sure some readers are thinking and preparing to type or tweet. But if it's impossible for a white person to grow up without adopting racist ideas, simply because of the environment in which they live, how can I expect men not to subconsciously absorb at least some degree of sexism? White people aren't safe, and men aren't safe, no matter how much I'd like to assure myself that these things aren't true.

My sons won't rape unconscious women behind a dumpster, and neither will most of the progressive men I know. But what all of these men share in common, even my sons, is a relentless questioning and disbelief of the female experience. I do not want to prove my pain, or provide enough evidence to convince anyone that my trauma is merited. I'm through wasting my time on people who are more interested in ideas than feelings, and I'm through pretending these people, these men, are safe.

I love my sons, and I love some individual men. It pains me to say that I don't feel emotionally safe with them, and perhaps never have with a man, but it needs to be said because far too often we are afraid to say it. This is not a reflection of something broken or damaged in me; it is a reflection of the systems we build and our boys absorb. Those little boys grow into men who know the value of women, the value that's been ascribed to us by a broken system, and it seeps out from them in a million tiny, toxic ways.

I'm not sure I understand her complaint.  Is it that no men are safe from being taken in by red-pill culture (even just parts of it), including her own sons?

  • tysixtus
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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #1
In honor of Rednose being back, let me comment:

This bitch is 100% fucking crazy. 

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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #2
Eta: speaking as a man
/Eta

Newsflash: the world isn't perfect for everyone and men and women everywhere find themselves in a culture with baggage no matter what culture that is.

That said, thinking about rape culture/the patriarchy too deeply will fuck with anyone's head. It's a good sign that people have enough free time to get hung up on it I guess but it's a tough thing getting that hung up on anything that doesn't have a mechanical fix. Culture takes time to change and if you can't wait then you're going to suffer a lot of frustration.

Life ain't always easy. Sometimes it's harder than other times.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • ksen
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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #3
The comments section is being brutal on this woman.

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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #4
Normative discussions like that hardly ever end well.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • linus
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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #5
I'm not sure I understand her complaint.  Is it that no men are safe from being taken in by red-pill culture (even just parts of it), including her own sons?
Maybe just that men, even under the most favorable conditions presently possible, still grow up to be sexist to some degree (a higher degree than she can come to terms with).

  • meepmeep
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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #6
Quote
But what all of these men share in common, even my sons, is a relentless questioning and disbelief of the female experience.

I can't count how many times in my life men have told me what to think or how to feel or argued with me about shit like street or sexual harassment.

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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #7
Quote
But what all of these men share in common, even my sons, is a relentless questioning and disbelief of the female experience.

I can't count how many times in my life men have told me what to think or how to feel or argued with me about shit like street or sexual harassment.
yeah. that's the real issue is telling people how to feel about stuff. If this lady feels that way, that really isn't a matter of debate since it's a fact that she feels that way.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • ksen
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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #8
Sometimes when my wife is telling how she feels about something I have to stop and remind myself she's not looking for me to tell her why she shouldn't feel that way even though I realllly want to say something like that.

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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #9
ayup
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • rednoise
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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #10
. . . a feminism thread.

I'm Done Pretending Men Are Safe (Even My Sons)

Quote
I know I'm not supposed to cast an entire sex with a single paint brush -- not all men, I'm sure some readers are thinking and preparing to type or tweet. But if it's impossible for a white person to grow up without adopting racist ideas, simply because of the environment in which they live, how can I expect men not to subconsciously absorb at least some degree of sexism? White people aren't safe, and men aren't safe, no matter how much I'd like to assure myself that these things aren't true.

My sons won't rape unconscious women behind a dumpster, and neither will most of the progressive men I know. But what all of these men share in common, even my sons, is a relentless questioning and disbelief of the female experience. I do not want to prove my pain, or provide enough evidence to convince anyone that my trauma is merited. I'm through wasting my time on people who are more interested in ideas than feelings, and I'm through pretending these people, these men, are safe.

I love my sons, and I love some individual men. It pains me to say that I don't feel emotionally safe with them, and perhaps never have with a man, but it needs to be said because far too often we are afraid to say it. This is not a reflection of something broken or damaged in me; it is a reflection of the systems we build and our boys absorb. Those little boys grow into men who know the value of women, the value that's been ascribed to us by a broken system, and it seeps out from them in a million tiny, toxic ways.

I'm not sure I understand her complaint.  Is it that no men are safe from being taken in by red-pill culture (even just parts of it), including her own sons?

No. What she's saying is that patriarchal social relations make it such that she can't trust men, even men she's close with, not to adopt or exhibit sexist tendencies. Which is a valid feeling as far as she's concerned. Not all women feel this way and I don't think she was trying to say that all individual women need to feel that way. But I'd bet most women, if not all, have experienced things like condescension or attempts to control their feelings by even men they trust.

"Red pill rape culture" is something that is even more overt, and not just overt but actively defends a man's ability to do sexist shit. I don't think she's saying that all men are subject to that kind of thinking.
  • Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 02:56:32 PM by rednoise
"Marx and myself, one has fought harder all one's life long against the alleged Socialists than against anyone else"

-Engels

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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #11
I didn't realise how wrong I was to say that I am "colour-blind" . It really is a fucked thing to say that sounds good on the surface. The sentiment is OK, until I realised as a straight white male, I hadn't walked a mile in another person's moccasins. Had I been cat-called for my tits or arse? Or raped? Or tried to get an abortion without having to justify my decision to males to churches or society? Have I experienced racism? Do I know what gay people have to go through? Nyet.

The uproar over  some wimmins wanting to have a men-free concert. What the fuck was that? To go to an event where they feel free from the threat of being pawed or raped. Just to listen to some music. Don't seem like much to ask. Gentlemen's clubs were not formed to prevent men being raped by women. They just underlined privilege and class. [And often race as well].

I blame religions for most of this shit. They might not have invented it all, but they certainly exploited it, and perpetuated it. Think of The Great Chain Of Being, where a woman is outranked by a horse! Where are the lesbian Dalai Lamas? The gay Popes? The pregnant, black Archbishops? The HIV-positive Imams? The moral leadership?



Believer in High Powers, and naturally, logarithms.
Pikkiwoki is the one true god.

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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #12
The comments section is being brutal on this woman.


I've not read the article or the comments but I can say that I'd hate someone to start that conversation with me.

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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #13
Quote
But what all of these men share in common, even my sons, is a relentless questioning and disbelief of the female experience.

I can't count how many times in my life men have told me what to think or how to feel or argued with me about shit like street or sexual harassment.

It feels to me that one reason that there's a disconnect in discussions about this stuff is that being told how to think/feel and having your direct experiences dismissed are basically universal experiences, and no one is ever really explicit about why they're describing something different from the same things everyone experiences. I mean, people tell me what to think/feel all the time, often in ways that are obviously inflected with a dismissal of my experiences grounded in whatever personal characteristics people imagine me to have. Similar things can be said re: being condescended to. But the op must be saying something else because otherwise it wouldn't be worth saying at all because everyone (or just about everyone) has those experiences. Do you know what that is?

ETA: not a rhetorical question, genuinely would like to know
  • Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 06:54:47 PM by Quizalufagus

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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #14
Quote
But what all of these men share in common, even my sons, is a relentless questioning and disbelief of the female experience.

I can't count how many times in my life men have told me what to think or how to feel or argued with me about shit like street or sexual harassment.
Oi hay there, why ya gedding so upset? Folks just comlpimenting you on how pretty you are. Stop being such an ice bitch and show a little of your gambs for the boys, eh?


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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #15
Quote
But what all of these men share in common, even my sons, is a relentless questioning and disbelief of the female experience.

I can't count how many times in my life men have told me what to think or how to feel or argued with me about shit like street or sexual harassment.

It feels to me that one reason that there's a disconnect in discussions about this stuff is that being told how to think/feel and having your direct experiences dismissed are basically universal experiences, and no one is ever really explicit about why they're describing something different from the same things everyone experiences. I mean, people tell me what to think/feel all the time, often in ways that are obviously inflected with a dismissal of my experiences grounded in whatever personal characteristics people imagine me to have. Similar things can be said re: being condescended to. But the op must be saying something else because otherwise it wouldn't be worth saying at all because everyone (or just about everyone) has those experiences. Do you know what that is?

ETA: not a rhetorical question, genuinely would like to know
You're on the aspirgers spectrum, yes?
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #16
Have you ever seen Autism in Love? Something cool about that film is that it highlights the role of explicit communication in forming functioning relationships. The fact that communicating directly was the only way to do it for the autistic couples in the film turns a mirror on the rest of us, whose relationships so often suck because we rely on our heightened appreciation of the implicit when we should just be honestly and openly saying what we mean.

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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #17
Have you ever seen Autism in Love? Something cool about that film is that it highlights the role of explicit communication in forming functioning relationships. The fact that communicating directly was the only way to do it for the autistic couples in the film turns a mirror on the rest of us, whose relationships so often suck because we rely on our heightened appreciation of the implicit when we should just be honestly and openly saying what we mean.
I haven't. Sounds like a nail biter.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #18
Anyway, that question you asked very likely doesn't have a satisfactory answer if you are on the spectrum.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #19
You never listen to me, testy. It hurts my feelings.

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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #20
You never listen to me, testy. It hurts my feelings.
Oh I.listen. I listen.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #21
Quote
But what all of these men share in common, even my sons, is a relentless questioning and disbelief of the female experience.

I can't count how many times in my life men have told me what to think or how to feel or argued with me about shit like street or sexual harassment.

It feels to me that one reason that there's a disconnect in discussions about this stuff is that being told how to think/feel and having your direct experiences dismissed are basically universal experiences, and no one is ever really explicit about why they're describing something different from the same things everyone experiences. I mean, people tell me what to think/feel all the time, often in ways that are obviously inflected with a dismissal of my experiences grounded in whatever personal characteristics people imagine me to have. Similar things can be said re: being condescended to. But the op must be saying something else because otherwise it wouldn't be worth saying at all because everyone (or just about everyone) has those experiences. Do you know what that is?

ETA: not a rhetorical question, genuinely would like to know
I think, in this case, it's a matter of degree. Yes, this sort of thing happens to everyone (even straight white men, get me a fainting couch!!!). 

However, and this isn't a little deal, for women, it's  nearly constant barrage, and not even directly from the people around them, advertising targeting women is arguably worse because 1) it's so pervasive, and 2) it's completely impersonal.

My wife is smart (smarter than me) and she has had experiences at work that boggle my mind.

And I'm far from perfect, I catch myself (and more often, my wife catches me) doing some of the 'minor' shit that happens all the time. Even trying to be aware of it, it's hard to stop because it's so ingrained in our society that it's habit. It would be like starting everyone (or, you know, just the guys....) on cigarettes when they are 10 years old...it would really hard to break that habit.

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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #22
Quote
But what all of these men share in common, even my sons, is a relentless questioning and disbelief of the female experience.

I can't count how many times in my life men have told me what to think or how to feel or argued with me about shit like street or sexual harassment.
Oi hay there, why ya gedding so upset? Folks just comlpimenting you on how pretty you are. Stop being such an ice bitch and show a little of your gambs for the boys, eh?



This is racist against Italians.

  • meepmeep
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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #23
Goddamn Testy, you salty. :ohmy:

And I'm far from perfect, I catch myself (and more often, my wife catches me) doing some of the 'minor' shit that happens all the time. Even trying to be aware of it, it's hard to stop because it's so ingrained in our society that it's habit. It would be like starting everyone (or, you know, just the guys....) on cigarettes when they are 10 years old...it would really hard to break that habit.

Yeah, and women do it to other women, too, sometimes because it's so ingrained. Like a slightly different example - women apologizing for everything. I do it all the fucking time even though I'm aware of it whenever "sorry" comes out of my mouth. And literally every woman I interact with in public at the grocery store or wherever who is in the vicinity and looking at/trying to do the same thing apologizes for occupying that particular space at the same time. Like just Saturday, at a casual salad shop, this lady apologized for taking a minute to clean her plate into the trash and place her tray on the pile because there wasn't enough room for 2 people to do it at once. Yes, lady, you definitely should apologize for getting there first and needing to throw out your trash.

As for the condescension, men get it, too, but not at the same rate as most women. My most recent favorite was the ex bf of a family member who insisted that strawberries are toxic to dogs because they create intestinal obstructions. I said nah, they're not toxic and I've never heard of strawberry seeds causing an obstruction, but he continued to insist I was wrong, despite knowing I had extensive experience in the field. I rarely see guys get talked to like that except at the hands of particularly douchey asshole bosses.

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Re: In honor of the return of my good friend Rednoise I present . . .
Reply #24
Goddamn Testy, you salty. :ohmy:

And I'm far from perfect, I catch myself (and more often, my wife catches me) doing some of the 'minor' shit that happens all the time. Even trying to be aware of it, it's hard to stop because it's so ingrained in our society that it's habit. It would be like starting everyone (or, you know, just the guys....) on cigarettes when they are 10 years old...it would really hard to break that habit.

Yeah, and women do it to other women, too, sometimes because it's so ingrained. Like a slightly different example - women apologizing for everything. I do it all the fucking time even though I'm aware of it whenever "sorry" comes out of my mouth. And literally every woman I interact with in public at the grocery store or wherever who is in the vicinity and looking at/trying to do the same thing apologizes for occupying that particular space at the same time. Like just Saturday, at a casual salad shop, this lady apologized for taking a minute to clean her plate into the trash and place her tray on the pile because there wasn't enough room for 2 people to do it at once. Yes, lady, you definitely should apologize for getting there first and needing to throw out your trash.

As for the condescension, men get it, too, but not at the same rate as most women. My most recent favorite was the ex bf of a family member who insisted that strawberries are toxic to dogs because they create intestinal obstructions. I said nah, they're not toxic and I've never heard of strawberry seeds causing an obstruction, but he continued to insist I was wrong, despite knowing I had extensive experience in the field. I rarely see guys get talked to like that except at the hands of particularly douchey asshole bosses.
this would have been way better if you started with,"I'm sorry, but...."  :D