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Messages - osmanthus

1
A very exotic secret dance; if you see it, the penguins have to kill you.  :sadyes:
Penguins do "exotic dancing"? Ok, so what do they take off then?

(It is a cool discovery though)

(The colony, not the exotic dancing)
4
Is this a rather sad attempt to make it seem like you were only half wrong?
:grin:
5
Ffs. In today's age of dark net, encryption, and anonymous communication and currency, what possible "scary reason" is getting a ham radio (as in very, very open to interception) license supposed to invoke?
I looked it up.

It's supposed to be an untraceable means of communication among anti-Trump people.

My description seems pretty on-target.

http://archive.is/YDdsi
Oh ffs. :rofl:
7
Of course, now he's advocating peaceful resistance to Nazis, so expect another flip in the not too distant future. :grin:
8
Pretty sure he flipped the kumbaya switch after realizing he was going too far.
This.
10
I am not convinced that you actually even have a desire for all people to be treated equally and fairly. What evidence from your own life can you give that you have a desire for all people to be treated equally?
You mean apart from me disapproving of Nazis at Charlottesville, unlike the president you voted for?
12
And I'd still like you to think about my earlier question. Should the states that made up the old Confederacy be allowed to secede today if they wished to re-establish slavery?

Why would anyone oppose secession for any reason? I certainly wouldn't.
I know, but I want him to think about it and be clear about his response.
13

No Dave, let's be crystal clear on this.

1/ Are you claiming that slavery as practiced in the South was not generally more oppressive than working conditions in the North?

2/ Are you claiming that Lincoln was wrong in abolishing Southern slavery?

1) I don't know yet. 2) No I don't think anyone is wrong for abolishing slavery in their own country.
Ok Dave, think about this.

You have said the South should have been allowed to secede. If they were allowed to secede, then they would be a separate country to the US. In that case, Lincoln would not be forcibly abolishing slavery in his own country but in someone else's.

Do you think he should have done this?

Edit: And I'd still like you to think about my earlier question. Should the states that made up the old Confederacy be allowed to secede today if they wished to re-establish slavery?
14
Horrible if accurate.
But not "horrible" enough to trigger the Civil War to stop it?
I think war is a horrible way to accomplish anything. 
Do you agree that sometimes it is necessary?
15
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Horrible if accurate.
Do you have any reason to think it is not accurate?
16
Secession was, no doubt, the proximate cause of the civil war.
And neither President Lincoln nor most of the Union was willing to accept secession without a fight.
But there is also no doubt that slavery - the South's embrace/defense/dependency on it and the North's rejection of it - was the cause of secession.
But Hawkins thinks it was wrong to not just accept secession.
Presumably he thinks that if all the "Blue States" seceded because we find Trumpism so abhorrent, that would be OK.
Presumably he thinks that if, say, Florida decided to secede over, say, the right to institutionalize human sacrifice, that would be OK.
Or perhaps human sacrifice is really, really bad, whereas chattel slavery was just, well, bad* ?

*(but not so bad compared with Princes of Capitalism exploiting workers)

:dunno:
Why would anyone oppose secession for any reason? I certainly wouldn't.
Secession was, no doubt, the proximate cause of the civil war.
And neither President Lincoln nor most of the Union was willing to accept secession without a fight.
But there is also no doubt that slavery - the South's embrace/defense/dependency on it and the North's rejection of it - was the cause of secession.
But Hawkins thinks it was wrong to not just accept secession.
Presumably he thinks that if all the "Blue States" seceded because we find Trumpism so abhorrent, that would be OK.
Or, to bring it back to the topic of this thread: how would Dave react if the same states that comprised the old Confederacy decided that they wanted to re-establish slavery, and wanted to secede on that basis? Would he say they should be allowed to?
Dave?
17
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Absolutely.

Interesting little side note* is that Lincoln regarded the situation brought about by the centuries-old fact of racial slavery as lose-lose; i.e. continuation of slavery was not an option, and living with two "unequal" races was unworkable. And that the freed slaves should maybe just go "back" to Africa. Frederick Douglass, um, shared his thoughts with Lincoln on what a beyond-offensive proposition that was.


*that I learned about reading one of those :yuck: book :yuck: things - specifically Doris Kearns Goodwin's "Team of Rivals"
It's a pity we can't arrange a conversation between Lincoln and Obama. It would be fascinating to watch.
18
Secession was, no doubt, the proximate cause of the civil war.
And neither President Lincoln nor most of the Union was willing to accept secession without a fight.
But there is also no doubt that slavery - the South's embrace/defense/dependency on it and the North's rejection of it - was the cause of secession.
But Hawkins thinks it was wrong to not just accept secession.
Presumably he thinks that if all the "Blue States" seceded because we find Trumpism so abhorrent, that would be OK.
Or, to bring it back to the topic of this thread: how would Dave react if the same states that comprised the old Confederacy decided that they wanted to re-establish slavery, and wanted to secede on that basis? Would he say they should be allowed to?
19
Among the astonishing revelations that emerges from this discussion is that, while Abraham Lincoln is widely revered as the best president the US has ever had*...

* Not just by Americans, but world-wide.
It's a tricky one. Lincoln was to some extent a man of his time, and frankly his attitude to black people was not what we would regard as exemplary these days. He recognised slavery as an evil that needed to be ended, but still thought of white people as superior to black people. I'm not sure how Lincoln would have coped if we put him in a time machine and fast forwarded him to the Obama presidency. Although I am fairly sure he would have been sane enough to recognise Obama's good points, once he was in a situation where it was hard to deny them.

The other thing is that Lincoln was in a position to end a great evil in the US, and rightly gets a lot of credit for it. Obviously that same opportunity was not available to later presidents, and we don't know how some of them would have handled it.

Short version is I'd happily call Lincoln one of your greatest presidents.
20
But nothing that has been stated here in this thread has convinced me that the North fought the Civil War because they loved black people and wanted to help them and thought of them as equals.
That's not the topic of this thread, Mr. Don't-You-Dare-Post-Off-Topic-Content-In-My-Precious-Threads-Unless-I-Want-To. :p

You never answered this either:

So you are saying that slavery as practiced in the south was generally much more oppressive than, say, the slavery of a typical factory worker in the north?  Therefore Lincoln was right for abolishing it?

No Dave, let's be crystal clear on this.

1/ Are you claiming that slavery as practiced in the South was not generally more oppressive than working conditions in the North?

2/ Are you claiming that Lincoln was wrong in abolishing Southern slavery?

21
It's a bit hard to get enthused about banning people who get the shits with you when the reason they get the shits with you is that you are defending child abuse and slavery and Nazis and racists. And yes, you are. If you don't want to defend those things, you need to take a good look at what you are posting. But we've been over this several times, to no avail.
22
well maybe you'd quit thinking that if a bullet was in your brain. bonus points, cause you'd also quit thinking the alt-right is great and that the civil war wasn't about slavery!
Yes, you're right.  If a Nazi like you puts a bullet in my brain, I will quit thinking.  Any other great insights you'd like to share?
That's not news, Dave. What would interest us is a way to start you thinking.
23
Weirdly,  the part of the bible he seems to believe is revelations
Fundies are big on fear, and Revelations is the scary bit.
24
Well, to be fair just because that was in Darwin's house doesn't mean that he really believed the message.   Similarly, Dave grew up in a house with bibles, and probably owns one himself, but is not really a Christian.
And Dave runs a blog called "Truth Matters", but generally hates truth.
25
I also find it interesting that Calhoun, like Hitler, believed that certain races were inferior. 

Gee I wonder if he got that idea from the same source as Hitler.

That is ... from Darwin.
So let's be clear on this, Dave. Do you think that no southerners thought black people were inferior before Darwin? Say, back in the 17th century when the slave trade was already underway? As in centuries before Darwin?

Are you trying to imply that, if it wasn't for Darwin, slavery in the US would never have got started?