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Messages - Lugubert

Dave, when a single tree falls it doesn't clear a saw the 300ft wide and a mile long.  You're not proposing to clear a little false here and there at the kind of rate you'd expect to be happening in the forest anyway. You wanted to "thin the canopy by 50%". All those animals attracted to light gaps by the abundance of food? Normally they live in the canopy. Remove half of it and you destroy their habitat.
Is opening up some "light gaps" comparable to those described in the article the same as thinning the entire rainforest canopy to 50%?  No I don't think so.

Did I say it was? No, no I did not. I'm pointing out to you that natural breaks in the canopy are not what you are proposing to create. They, and the huge amounts of leaching that you will open the soil up to, are not comparable to a gap in the canopy that lasts a few years at most, is rapidly colonised by shrubs and (comparatively) low growing trees that will still be supplying the thin topsoil with nutrients, and taking those nutrients up almost as fast as they are applied. The bulk of the biomass is still in the plants, not the soil. It still doesn't get a chance to build up, because those plants, being rainforest plants, are adapted to soils with very few nutrients and take everything up as fast as they can. And yes, there will be increased leaching in that little area, because there will be more rainfall reaching the forest floor in large bursts, rather than gradually as a result of being delayed by the canopy and all the plants living up there.

I stopped talking about the 50% thing when I saw too many heads exploding.  We can talk about that again later once you've gotten your heads around "light gaps."

Dave, we understand light gaps as being a standard part of rainforest ecology. They form, there;s a brief flurry of activity around them, and then they close up again. More importantly they're small and widely spaced. Totally unlike your proposals.

Dave, once you've gotten your head around basic rainforest ecology maybe you can start thinking about exactly what effects your idiotic and utterly destructive policy will have on animals and plants that depend on the canopy and near continuous rainforest cover have. How do you think sloths will be able to get to their communal middens with 330ft gaps between trees? Did you even know sloths have communal middens?
You're full of shit.  I'm tired of arguing with idiots.  Maybe I'll be in the mood another day.  Nothing will be destroyed.  I'm simply going to open up some "light gaps" and feed sheep and goats therein.  The end.
Fortunately, other posters aren't tired of arguing with
you, so the thread goes on.

What, specifically, will grow in your gaps that can feed sheep and goats?
You are just regurgitating what you have read about all the nutrients being in the canopy. And of course that is somewhat true because rainforest trees are so massive. But I doubt any octohatters have really done a serious analysis of how much NPK and trace minerals are in the rainforest soil because all these nutrients are bound up not only in Roots but also in the bodies of organisms and octohatters aren't used to thinking of nutrients being inside  the bodies of organisms like bacteria and fungi.

 It's a whole different way of thinking.
Very interesting if true. Dave, by what processes do trees access "nutrients being inside the bodies of organisms like bacteria and fungi" and have such processes been observed? What are the (observed?) mechanisms by which microorganism are able to incorporate nutrients (which of course have to be in a solution) before tree roots absorb them directly?
'Liberal" in the US has a much different meaning than it has in many other countries. Here in Greece, our right-wing party proudly uses the term 'liberal' to refer to their principles.
For another example, in Sweden, there are (perhaps slightly simplified) three major parties to the right of the centre party, Centern.

First to the right, the Liberals. Second, the Moderates, declaring themselves to be a liberal-conservative party. US republicans will probably regard both as socialist. The extreme right party members often look rather fascist, and probably won't go for the Liberal label.
Has dave answered how he feels about the inverse situation ie doctors want to keep child on life support but parents want to take him off.

(I'm guessing he hasn't/ won't. AFDave's laws and all)
Two weeks now, and your prediction still holds.
You don't need anesthetic to have stitches. When I was a butcher I remember a guy named bill who would stitch his own cuts because he didn't want to lose the hours it took to go to the little clinic just 5 miles down the road where everyone else went to get them. He was an odd dude but not crazy. It just isn't that bad. He was definitely the only one who did it, but it was only weird because everyone else enjoyed the break. Unpaid or not.
I stitched my own knee in my third year of med school. Just two small stitches with a silk suture. It hurt a lot, and I found the needle hurt way more coming out than going in- I had to stop mid-stitch a few times. I later realized that the reason it was so hard was because you had to fight your own instinct to flinch at the pain, and that made your hand stop and/or jerk back, prolonging and worsening the pinch.
Or maybe I was just a widdle crybaby, I dunno. I certainly never tried it again since.
Back when we used to prick our finger to draw blood for a teaching lab exercise, it was hilarious to watch students use the blade in their right hand to prick a finger of their left hand, but move the left hand away to avoid the blade.  This whole 'self-preservation' thing is generally hard to override.

It's probably often a case of feeling sufficient motivation. I guess that a diabetic who knows that finger-pricking to test for blood glucose (BG) is literally vital, will soon find the willpower to hack away.

Many years ago, I was a pharma sales rep. To demo BG meters, I had to get a sample from myself and process it. My job depended on it. Just do it and smile. It certainly helped that the perforating gadget was marketed as being quite close to painless, so I had to perform unflinchingly and smiling. It also helped that I was and still am curious of medical matters, so I observed myself and my actions and reactions, which left little opportunity for being afraid or hesitant.

To be able to argue convincingly from personal knowledge of the alternatives, I tried several different puncture aids. Again, curiosity and qualifying for the pay check...

Heck, I even was more curious and analysing than scared when I had my first stroke: I can't lift my left arm or leg!? Irritating but interesting.
More etymology from Wikipedia, including another explanation of -ine:

Novocain/Novocaine/Procain seems indeed to be derived from cocaine. The trade name Novocaine is from Latin nov- (meaning "new") and -caine, a common ending for alkaloids used as anesthetics.
Lidocaine was first synthesized under the name 'xylocaine' by a Swedish chemist in 1943. The first part of the name comes from an important metabolite, xylidine.
The German pharmacist Friedrich Wilhelm Adam Sertürner was the first to isolate morphine from opium. He called the isolated alkaloid "morphium" after the Greek god of dreams, Morpheus. He became the first person to isolate the active ingredient associated with a medicinal plant or herb.
Sertürner originally named the substance morphium after the god of dreams,  as it has a tendency to cause sleep.

-ine is a suffix used in chemistry to denote two kinds of substances. The first is a chemically basic and alkaloidal substance.

The name codeine is derived from the Ancient Greek κώδεια (kṓdeia, "poppy head").
Oxycodone's chemical name is derived from codeine. The chemical structures are very similar. One of three differences is that Oxycodone has a hydroxy group at carbon-14 (codeine has just a hydrogen in its place).
Hydrocodone, also known as dihydrocodeinone, is a semi-synthetic opioid synthesized from codeine.

Hydromorphone, also known as dihydromorphinone, is made from morphine. Comparatively, hydromorphone is to morphine as hydrocodone is to codeine - it is a hydrogenated ketone thereof.

I found no explanation of "methadone".
I dunno, I consider it 'lying'.

But today's How to Insult Your Allies Award goes to Trump's newly appointed Ambassador to Germany, Richard Grenell:

Within hours of assuming his new post on Tuesday, Richard Grenell triggered harsh criticism in this Trump-weary country after appearing to threaten one of the American president's frequent targets: German businesses.
In a tweet following President Trump's announcement to leave the Iran nuclear deal, Grenell wrote that "German companies doing business in Iran should wind down operations immediately." Germany, alongside France and Britain, wants to stick to the deal Trump is seeking to scrap. And while Grenell's post may not deviate from the official White House stance on future European business dealings with Iran, the timing and tone struck some German politicians, journalists and businessmen as offensive and inappropriate.

[...and after considerable backlash from German politicians and businesses...]

Grenell defended his tweet on Wednesday, writing that he had used "the exact language sent out from the White House talking points & fact sheet." Some German media outlets have acknowledged the diplomat's experience as a spokesman for the U.S. mission to the United Nations during the George W. Bush administration, but his career as a Fox News Channel commentator and early defender of Trump has drawn ire.
If responses to Grenell's Twitter defense on Wednesday offer any indication, the new U.S. ambassador to Germany will be up to a difficult task in Berlin.
"That language is not going to further your cause. If anything, it will do the opposite. Good luck with the new job," Marcel Dirsus, a German political scientist focusing on defense issues, responded to Grenell on Twitter.

Offhand, ordering your allies' businesses around makes for poor diplomacy imv.
Perhaps not quite an ally, but sufficiently insulting to an Asian: Netanyahu's cook serves Japan's Premier Abe a shoe.
I have all the painkillers and fever reducers, remember?

Also got some stuff to help Lugubert's tummy feel a bit soothed after he sneaks some butter.

Oh and some stuff to help with the runs should that be needed.

Fat chance that I would try butter in harmful quantities. IRL I use vegetable based margarine.
People have been drinking all kinds of milk from various different milk producing animals for thousands of years all over the world and these Schmucks with fancy science degrees want to say that we can't do that anymore.



No science (or other) degree is needed for me to realize that ingesting too much lactose containing products is very bad for me.

I have two close East Asian friends. They are even more careful than me in avoiding milk products.

You are to a comical degree exaggerating human use of animal milk.
Borealis wants to garden and she thinks I'm weird for wanting to live primarily on milk and meat and eggs.


I will take half the 100 people on our 1000-acre Island Experiment into my tribe and you take the other half into your tribe. You feed your tribe your way and I will feed my tribe my way and we'll see who is healthier and who has more time on their hands for non-subsistence type pursuits such as arts and crafts and sciences.

Dave, if I were on your team, I would have to spend so much time on the bucket that I would have no time left for "arts and crafts and sciences". My intestines would be way more cooperative on a borealis diet. I have to restrict even my low lactose ice cream intake, and moreover I don't like drinking milk.
But why are you focusing on these difficult areas? I myself am interested in focusing on areas where it's easy to raise sheep and goats and cattle with just a change of thinking.

That's a HUGE area worldwide.

You spend all this time typing out these long-winded objections to my program applied to what? 10% of the world's land area? 20%?  Quit being such a naysayer and start focusing on the 80 to 90% of land area that we can do something about easily with just a change of thinking.

You're pulling numbers out of your ass again.

4,924 M ha land used for agriculture, as for year 2013
14,894,000,000 Hectares total land area global
Oh come on Borealis you can do better than that. There's a good graphic at this link that lays it all out.
Good graphic. An excellent illustration of why, because of calories and protein supplied, more land should be used for crops and less for livestock.
Lots of similarities between the county where I live and the borealis community. Roughly the same area, population and coastline length. Urban centres, a couple of fishing villages, farmland, wood growing for paper and pulp. One difference is that we're at a Hudson Bay latitude. And we've got one of the world's largest newsprint mills.

Extensive systems for composting. Bins for 6 fractions, which most people have within walking distance, mixed garbage and kitchen waste are collected bi-weekly at your place. Half a dozen lager collection centres, where you in addition to the local fractions can leave environmentally dangerous material (paint rests, excess rat poison, electronics...) as well as garden waste and things for recycling.

Driving the length of the county takes an hour and a half (175 km), but if you go by the secondary roads, you will have lots of coastal views and, in season, fields and fields of grazing cows and horses. To an amateur, the fenced areas look very generous in size, so that the animals can graze naturally and choose where to go. By law, cows are allowed to graze for at least 120 days 1 April - 31 October. Google hits make me suppose that their main diet for the rest of the year is hay and sileage.

Farms surviving for hundreds of years indicate that local practices aren't destroying soil quality. I don't think there are areas here that need saving.
Dave, you have mentioned that some big chains started humbly, with perhaps one outlet/restaurant or whatever. What made it possible for them to expand probably was that they could show that the startup worked like intended. Demonstrate with measurements that prove that your theories and hopes work, and you will increase your chances of getting followers. Do you think people would buy your windows if you had no samples or reference windows that seem to do their job?
And the Pope backed the transfer.
What the hell do you think this has to do with anything?  :dunno:
Kinda puts the situation in a different category than your run of the mill child abuse case doncha think?

Let's put a slightly different case: let's say a child with a degenerative disorder is whimpering in agony on a life-support machine, and medical advice is that there is no treatment for the pain, and no chance of recovery.  Parents insist that the life-support is maintained, in case some currently unknown treatment can be found at some point.

Would you support the parents' decision in such a case?

Answer this question Dave, you utter shithouse.

And still no answer from Dave.  Very telling.
Totally like my implied question if parents should be allowed to chain, torture and starve their children. No comment from Dave to that WaPo quote.
Tempting as it may be, calling your admin a lying baby killer is not against TR rules. So dave gets no timeout for being an abusive slandering asshole. He just further indicates to anyone who reads itt that he is in fact a misogynist, verbally abusive, low-information,  craptastic asshole with no concept of ethical behaviour.
...on a public forum where he's used his real name.   Hope none of his potential business partners can Google...
Considering how much time he has to post on fora, one wonders if he still is employed.
It's probably not entirely wishful thinking that Alfie's parents thought that Alfie was responding to them and aware.  There are routes from sensory organs (e.g. eyes, ears) directly to areas of the midbrain that can mediate reflexive responses to stimuli without cerebral involvement in the process.

That must be what I once experienced! I had stopped for red light at an avenue crossing. Got green, and started my usually heavy right foot. Then my left foot stomped the brake pedal all the way down. I didn't understand what happened to me, but a split second later a car shot through his red light from the left. I'm afraid that even consciously noticing the advancing car wouldn't have made me brake sufficiently and in time. Also, fortunately, my left eye is the not lazy one.
Dave's reasoning reminds me of this lawyer:

* Lawyer: "Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you check for a pulse?"

* Witness: "No."

* Lawyer: "Did you check for blood pressure?"

* Witness: "No."

* Lawyer: "Did you check for breathing?"

* Witness: "No."

* Lawyer: "So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when you began the autopsy?"

* Witness: "No."

* Lawyer: "How can you be so sure, Doctor?"

* Witness: "Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar."

* Lawyer: "But could the patient have still been alive nevertheless?"

* Witness: "Yes, it is possible that he could have been alive and practicing law somewhere."
My point remains.  Why is a court deciding something that parents should be deciding?

Quote from: WaPo
If they misbehaved, the 13 siblings living in a Southern California home would be tied to their beds as punishment -- first with ropes, until a child whose limbs were strung together was able to wriggle free. Then, the parents began using chains and padlocks, officials said.

A case of parents deciding. Is that always a good thing, Dave?
People who accept common descent, which is the vast majority of those who know what it is, know that everything is linked. The question is how. That is what the chart partly shows. Since you don't accept common descent, you are stuck with attributing al sorts of silly things to the research of others.
He doesn't accept common descent? But isn't that what his latest multiply copied chart shows? Neanderthals and Sapiens share ancestors and neither is the ancestor of the other one?
I'd be out collecting plenty willow leaves and bark, and Spiraea, because people will be willing to give me any damn thing for that stuff when they have need of it. Other plants too, but it's the ones named they'll be crying for first.
Why? What do these things do for you? I've never used them yet and I'm 55 years old.

Also, madmardigan wants to trade tools for food but this does not seem like a sustainable trade.  If he can make all the tools one person needs in one day, then he would eat for 100 days because there are 100 people. But after that?

Borealis, well set trap. It will give Dave a headache trying to find out what Salix has given name to.

ETA: I see you explained to him while I composed my post.
An Asia center of origin and dispersal for haplogroup L3 has also been hypothesized based on the fossil record, the similar coalescence dates of L3 and its Eurasian-distributed M and N derivative clades (~71 kya), the distant location in Southeast Asia of the oldest subclades of M and N, and the comparable age of the paternal haplogroup DE. After an initial Out-of-Africa migration of early anatomically modern humans around 125 kya, fully modern human L3-carrying females are thus proposed to have back-migrated from the maternal haplogroup's place of origin in Eurasia around 70 kya along with males bearing the paternal haplogroup E, which is also thought to have originated in Eurasia. These new Eurasian lineages are then suggested to have largely replaced the old autochthonous male and female African lineages.[4]

Notice the strike through.

Worth repeating.
Does anyone else think it's a bit odd that someone would point to their own editing (striking through of a word the result of which is exactly the opposite of the original intent) of some research, which they had nothing whatsoever to do with being done, as some sort of evidence of something that research did not imply nor suggest.

Does anyone else look upon that sort of behavior as pathologically dishonest?

Does anyone else believe that sort of behavior in real world science would get one permanently ostracized with a complete and irredeemable loss of credibility?
It looks like Socrates' version of a child's "If I close my eyes, the scary sight isn't there".
Does this friend of yours, Homo flacidus, know Biggus Dickus? He's a friend of mine.
I've heard a rumour that Homo flacidus sent friend requests to Long Dong in Peking and Fat Prik in Canton.
My speculation seems far more logical to me than yours and is actually supported by known fact. Got any actual argument and reason which makes yours more likely?

Oh my sides!
I agree that Fenrir's supported idea is credible. The lack of argument and reason from Dave's side seems to indicate that not even he thinks that his own speculations can be supported.
He isn't going to fire Mueller. Mueller is part of the Kabuki theatre.
Still steadfastly ignoring the point of Trump using the presidency as a vehicle for personal enrichment, I see, This was supposed to be something that he was immune to.
I read that yesterday, at CounterPunch I think. Not surprised to find it mentioned in this thread and that there will be no comment from Dave.
I am Preaching ...

But I am also ...

Practicing what I preach ...
You have innumerable times been asked to provide proof for your claims. Your only response, when you even acknowledged the questions, has been like "TLAR". That's not even poor salesmanship but a good method to have possible customers lose any interest that they might have had, and leave.