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Messages - teeming brown mass

1
"global jewry"
for the alt-right, it is definitely a dog whistle about The Jews (cue ominous music)

but for a larger group of people, I think "Elite" cartoon-think is more vague and less insidious than that.  my issue with this usage is just that it's a simplistic and overly dramatic distortion of reality.

But if pushed, they'd probably admit they picture these "Elites" living in NYC and having Ashkenazi names
2
Skimming google scholar suggests that actually a lot of historians do not agree with the idea that Versailles was economically vindictive and instead suggests that Versailles largely maintained the status quo from before the war and maintained a unified Germany that would remain relatively politically powerful within Europe, and that the war debts remained largely imaginary and/or unpaid. The more immediate issues were not economic so much as social division between liberals who largely embraced the demilitarized Weimar and conservatives who felt that the Weimar was a betrayal of their imperialist past and intention to annex substantial territories during WWI. The sort of expansionist and eliminationist ideology that metastasized under the Nazis was probably part and parcel to the original WWI aims as well as the rage at Versailles by many conservative Germans.


those are purported to be stacks of deutchmarks that had become worthless in postwar germany.

this one is, I think, self-explanatory.



The economic system in the US collapsed at the same time. PESKY TREATY OF VERSAILLES!!!!

Oh wait.
um. The US did not have triple digit inflation. Neither did France or anywhere else.

Triple digit inflation was a function of bad fiscal policy by Germany to pay for the war and had ended by 1924, long before the Nazis took over.

Shifting culpability for the Holocaust onto the Treaty of Versailles and off the German people was propaganda to encourage investment by the US in West Germany after WWII. Don't base modern policy on it.
3
lol look at testy struggle to find some sort of economic justification for racist regimes.
4
Skimming google scholar suggests that actually a lot of historians do not agree with the idea that Versailles was economically vindictive and instead suggests that Versailles largely maintained the status quo from before the war and maintained a unified Germany that would remain relatively politically powerful within Europe, and that the war debts remained largely imaginary and/or unpaid. The more immediate issues were not economic so much as social division between liberals who largely embraced the demilitarized Weimar and conservatives who felt that the Weimar was a betrayal of their imperialist past and intention to annex substantial territories during WWI. The sort of expansionist and eliminationist ideology that metastasized under the Nazis was probably part and parcel to the original WWI aims as well as the rage at Versailles by many conservative Germans.


those are purported to be stacks of deutchmarks that had become worthless in postwar germany.

this one is, I think, self-explanatory.



The economic system in the US collapsed at the same time. PESKY TREATY OF VERSAILLES!!!!

Oh wait.
5
Well we can point readily to both Nazi Germany and the Stalinist purges as cases where racial animosity preceded economic concerns. We can also point to anti-Black violence in the Reconstruction-era US, the Jim Crow-era US, and so on. Economic anxiety seems to be part of these right-wing resurgences, but the racial animosity precedes them, and the economic anxieties seem to be a way to put a socially acceptable gloss on hatred that is otherwise out of vogue.

And, again, the current countries that are sinking into right wing bullshit are not in economically dire straights. The UK was doing just fine before they decided to catastrophically Brexit. France has been doing pretty well economically. The US is not suffering nearly as badly as Testy wants to believe. Hungary, which is probably the most right-wing country in the EU right now, has an unemployment rate of 5%, so it's not clear why they're voting for nazis if economics is the driving force.

In addition, as I keep hammering on here and elsewhere, a lot of right-wing policies directly drive economic collapse when implemented. Dismantling social welfare, eliminating civil rights protections, spreading fear, and fostering domestic insecurity are all part and parcel to the rise of right-wing movements and all create economic instability. In addition, policies like dismantling of unions and eliminating liberal arts education also damages the economy in meaningful ways. So yeah, there's a correlation between economics and politics, but probably because right-wingers actually create recessions through their activities.
6
I think it falls on you to find a case in history where normal tolerant people suddenly decided to embrace wholesale destruction of minority communities because of economics.
7
iow Keynes disagreed with the ToV but that was partially ideological and his rationale for opposing it did not really have an effect on the economical implications of the treaty.

And, as an extension, blaming economics for racial resentment and eliminationism has a long history but most of the time the racial resentment and eliminationism came first.
8
Skimming google scholar suggests that actually a lot of historians do not agree with the idea that Versailles was economically vindictive and instead suggests that Versailles largely maintained the status quo from before the war and maintained a unified Germany that would remain relatively politically powerful within Europe, and that the war debts remained largely imaginary and/or unpaid. The more immediate issues were not economic so much as social division between liberals who largely embraced the demilitarized Weimar and conservatives who felt that the Weimar was a betrayal of their imperialist past and intention to annex substantial territories during WWI. The sort of expansionist and eliminationist ideology that metastasized under the Nazis was probably part and parcel to the original WWI aims as well as the rage at Versailles by many conservative Germans.
9
Well, the Treaty of Versailles required that Germany refit their entire military infrastructure (ships, airforce, etc) for civilian purposes. I mean, think of the economic gains that we could expect if we were to convert the US military industrial complex into civilian infrastructure.

So yeah, not convinced at all.
10
tbf the Treaty of Versailles was pretty shit and directly contributed to the rise of Hitler.

The Treaty of Versailles wasn't actually all that bad in terms of the economics. The issue with the Treaty of Versailles is that it forced Germany to unilaterally take responsibility for the war. The combination of losing the war and then being forced to accept blame for losing the war made a lot of people feel that their heroism and/or sacrifice was being insulted and that the war must have been intentionally lost or undermined. And then a bunch of land was carved out of Germany and added to France, Poland, etc. This had nothing to do with the economic conditions experienced by Germans themselves (which were essentially the same as everyone else's during the Depression) and a lot to do with "feelings."

Same as the US right now, really.
11
non white people can also be shitty, but I think you've got to be pretty intentionally naive to think Trump didn't promise and hasn't tried to fulfill his promise to fuck over minorities in favor of white people at every stop so far. Sessions as AG alone is a huge, huge factor.

Trump also made a lot of promises that would have been appealing to the lower classes like not touching social security, coming down on pharmeceutical companies and other big businesses, putting their concerns first when it comes to trade deals etc.

All of which he's basically abandoned by now.

So the midterms and 2020 should be pretty interesting and will hopefully propel the dems back into power if they can just get their shit straight by then.

yeah and if the FAKE NEWS polls are to be believed, Trump voters still have zero regrets and would vote for him again in a heart beat. Racial animus was a much better predictor of "would vote Trump" than anything economic, and plenty of upper middle class white suburban assholes voted for him.
Racial animus didn't keep Obama from getting elected. Just saying.

okay? does that somehow mean racial animus can't be a major motivating factor in any other elections?

No, just that enough people voted for Obama that he won. It was clearly the card Trump played and there is really no way for Trump supporters to weasel out of that charge. However, the race card that he played most clearly was pretty specifically targeting rural communities who are faced with an influx of immigrants. Targeting a group that is clearly 'other' and also clearly coming in from outside means that the racism angle is more complex than klan ideology. Lot's of people are afraid of mexicans/hispanic immigrants because they don't understand them. They take jobs at the slaughterhouses that used to employ whites. They take jobs in construction that used to employ whites. They commit crimes that used to be committed by only the whites who were so poor and ignorant that they were lower class even in rural or small town communities. They are scary because they represent change and instability. The fear is real and the racist aspect of it is partly incidental. Playing into the racist angle of the war Trump represents just gives people who otherwise wouldn't have thought much about it a common cause with the actual Nazis out there and makes that racism into something concrete.



What you're essentially describing here is 99% of Klan ideology. Supremacist groups have "nuanced" reasons for their hate...they're not a bunch of cartoon villains. They have the same economic and racial anxieties you're excusing when it's "mainstream." That doesn't excuse the Klan and it shouldn't excuse these "mainstream" supporters of white supremecism either.
12
no literally you are praising the central tenets of nazism.
um. no he's not.

I can't fucking believe I have to explain this but.

Nazism wasn't solely about killing Jews. Killing Jews was a step in the national socialist plan, but the overall plan was one of blaming global elites for harming the German economy and promising to reallocate wealth that should have belonged to the German people in order to better serve the long-term needs of the German population. This involved gaining land through conquest in order to ensure that all Germans had enough land to farm and enslaving Slavic populations in order to ensure they had enough access to labor to generate wealth for the German populace. Killing Jews was part of this program inasmuch as Jewish wealth could be easily reallocated to Germans and because the education level and humanitarian ideals of a lot of the Jewish population made us natural opponents to Hitler's plan for Europe. Hitler was absolutely about providing a social safety net for his own people by killing people he felt were either directly opposing his social engineering project or who were seen as a burden on the system.

So yes, the idea of a limited social safety net that preferentially supports white people's jobs, livelihoods, and quality of life at the expense of vulnerable minorities was absolutely literally the agenda of Nazi Germany, and the reason why the Nazis had a lot of popular support in the lead-up to WWII, and why they had widespread collaboration by everyday citizens who were happy to be rewarded with their dead neighbors' material wealth.
13
"global jewry"
14
no literally you are praising the central tenets of nazism.
sez the guy basically wanting to literally build gas chambers for that troublemaking race

I'm literally happy to let you people just die from overdose.
15
no literally you are praising the central tenets of nazism.
16
keep praising national socialism
17
I agree with Teeth that we need a race war. May the best race win.

I'm not even saying we "need" a race war. I'm saying there already is one. Putting your head in the sand and ignoring it doesn't change the fact that it's already going on.
18
ksen, you're really puttin' the "socialism" in  "nationalsozialismus"
19
non white people can also be shitty, but I think you've got to be pretty intentionally naive to think Trump didn't promise and hasn't tried to fulfill his promise to fuck over minorities in favor of white people at every stop so far. Sessions as AG alone is a huge, huge factor.

Trump also made a lot of promises that would have been appealing to the lower classes like not touching social security, coming down on pharmeceutical companies and other big businesses, putting their concerns first when it comes to trade deals etc.

All of which he's basically abandoned by now.

So the midterms and 2020 should be pretty interesting and will hopefully propel the dems back into power if they can just get their shit straight by then.

Do you know who else was an ethnonationalist who supported state socialism for members of his preferred race?
20
loving how ksen is unironically going full #notallwhites
21
I think you're way too invested in this idea that the general structure of society after WWII is a stable one, particularly with the introduction of the sorts of destabilizing technologies that have been introduced into the arena.

I don't think this ends well. I think we end up dismantling a lot of the infrastructure that we've built over the past 70 years, including loss of public lands, public research, public labs, public educational institutions, etc. We're going to see a decreasing quality of goods and services, including critical services like health care and technological/energy infrastructure, and we'll see quality of life continue to deteriorate. People will increasingly radicalize against whatever vestiges of the social safety net as they continue to buy into the dismantlement of society, at which point we're basically staring down a Middle-Easternization of American society.

This sort of shit happens throughout history. There's no reason to believe it can't happen again, and a lot of reasons to think it might be happening now. If you're mobile enough to relocate, this might be the time to think about learning Chinese, because at least their information hygiene, while repressive, keeps this sort of thing from becoming quite as dangerous there.
22
no dude you're just a fascist for saying that you gotta understand THEIR PAINNNN
23
poor white working class you don't know how bad they have it
25
Realistically the issue is that the sheer amount of digital data anyone creates throughout their day to day life makes it really easy to dig up "scandals" and/or plant material for scandal creation without being identified. Teaching media literacy would be nice but it won't really fix that underlying problem, which is that people have confused tabloid papers with reality and immediately assume that everyone is secretly hiding an affair with batboy. People assume the existence of scandal and then go looking for it, and it's all confirmation bias.

Again, this isn't a social network thing so much as it's an acculturated suspicion and paranoia thing. I don't know how you treat that without massive amounts of haldol.
change the systemic conditions.

I don't think you can. The systemic conditions that foster this are not poverty. They are nihilism and an inability to differentiate between fictional media products and the real world.