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Messages - JonF

1
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I do feel that it's a definite possibility based on some pretty good information coming from an extremely reliable guy, Joel Salatin..
[Citation required]
2
It's true, Raffy,  that I have not personally achieved 1.5 million cal per acre with a dairy cow.  But we are not talking about what I have personally achieved. We are talking about possibilities.  This part of the conversation began because Pingu was saying that my ideas for feeding the world are stupid and that her ideas are better.  So we were debating that.
We are also talking about what has been achieved, which is much more convincing the your delusions.
3
"Walter Haugen  does not need one additional acre for compost making to supply a 1 acre garden."

Maybe he doesn't. I don't know for sure, but I know for sure he adds stuff to his garden every year and it has to come from someplace  and I'm pretty sure that the nonedible portions of his plants is not enough.   And if it's compost that he is adding then it requires about two parts brown material to one part green material and I am pretty sure the brown material has to come from trees.
IOW you made up all that fantasy bullshit.

So your "comparison" is meaningless.
4
Yes, well, we aren't going through explaining the advantages of legumes and roots and greens and fruits to you again, either.
No need.

I've got a pretty good handle on it now I think.

When you compare Joel Salatin's pasture numbers with Walter Haugen's gardening numbers, the animal numbers look pretty compelling.

Post the numbers.
I just did.
Post the numbers that correspond to reality.

Those you haven't posted.
5
Yes, well, we aren't going through explaining the advantages of legumes and roots and greens and fruits to you again, either.
No need.

I've got a pretty good handle on it now I think.

When you compare Joel Salatin's pasture numbers with Walter Haugen's gardening numbers the bullshit I made up, the animal numbers look pretty compelling.
FIFY.
7
Now 100,000 food calories from 1000 sf is good.   But when managing a complete garden not just potatoes, you will not get anything close to that.  Walter Haugen reports 2 million food calories per acre but he doesn't account for any acreage for compost.  If he did, he might only report 1 million food calories per acre ... or maybe only 500,000.
Or he might not. Or maybe not only half a million, more.

As usual you anally extract obviously biased bullshit. The rest of your posts merely propagate your BS.
8
Pingu  I would like to see  details of your plan. I think when you spell out the details, it will not end up being as good as you think.

Dave: I DO NOT HAVE A PLAN TO SAVE AGRICULTURE AND THEREBY SAVE THE WORLD.

That would be you.

Which is so colossally absurd, it's amazing that you are not mortified by hubris every time you see your thread title.

Instead, I keep an eye out for what people who are actively engaged in investigating sustainable food production, and food security issues, in all kinds of places, all over the globe, in lots of different environments, are thinking and advocating, particularly in terms of what I can do as a responsible consumer.

And several key principles emerge:

  • One is that, all other things being equal, you can get more food calories, including protein calories, out of growing vegetables (including grains, but also roots, nuts, beans, greens, fruits etc) out of a given area of land than you can by producing animal foods
  • Another is that we do not NEED to eat any animal foods to stay healthy (as long as we include plenty of variety) and that REDUCING the amount of animal foods in our diet in favour of green and orange vegetables in particular, is generally good, not bad, for our health.  Oh and that fish is generally much better for us than red meat.
  • Another is that food miles matter, but that the way in which food is transported also matters.  Shipping apples and bananas by sea is not the same as airfreighting salad and seafood to Thailand so that it can be prepared by cheap labour and then airfreighting it back again.
  • Another is that a lot of cultures are losing domestic cooking skills - the skills of preparing meals from raw ingredients.  This is very true in the UK.
  • Another is that it is surprising how productive a back garden can be, or even a balcony or window box, in terms of producing nutrient-dense food.
  • Another is that dense population centres, whether villages or cities, are more efficient in terms of resource consumption than dispersed suburbs.
  • Another is that sugar is one of the biggest health hazards of Western society.

So when thinking about my own food choices, I try to take all those things into account.  I try to buy food that is produced in a way that aligns with at least some of those principles.

 And when I finally semi-retire next year, the first thing I am going to do is grow my own tomatoes.
Yes I know you don't claim to have a world saving plan. And that's fine. Not everyone is as ambitious as I am.  And no, doesn't embarrass me at all to "aim high."  anyway if you think that  vegetables are a better way to feed people, I would like to see a detailed analysis  complete with square footage required and human calorie input versus human food calorie output plus an analysis of the compost input and so on and so forth. I've been unable to get anyone to give me one so far. Maybe you could be the first.  If you can't do that,  or point to someone else who has, then I would suggest that you really have no idea what you're talking about when you say that  plant foods  are a better way to feed people.

 If you want to simplify your analysis, just use potatoes.
First let's see your equivalent analysis for your "system".

ABE: The principles Pingu enunciated are far better established than the principles of HMG.
9
I also am baffled that people cannot understand that rotational grazing enhances pasture.

Let's do a little test.

Test question number one:  does anyone disagree that hay farmers will get more grass production if they fertilize their fields with either commercial fertilizer or animal manures?
Question number 0: How many ranchers all over the world are running two goats on ten acres in a goatschwitz?
10
First of all, EVERYONE - science degreed or not is affected by confirmation bias.  We must all guard against it.
We do.

You don't.

Quote
Secondly, you are correct that "my system enhances pasture" IS an assumption - it's not something I've personally measured and verified - but what you are overlooking is that it is a well supported assumption, with the work of thousands of ranchers all over the world supporting it.
Thousands of ranchers all over the world running two goats on ten acres in a goatschwitz?

I don't think so.
11
I'm interested carbon 14 but it's a little hard to talk about c14 data when I'm pretty sure that labs are throwing out "bad" dates.

Also, there's c14 in coal and diamonds. Why is that?
Off topic. But I'll answer:

For the reasons that have been explained over and over and over and over again, including this thread.

http://talkrational.org/index.php/topic,1511.msg119853.html#msg119853

Now, howzabout Brown?
12
Replacing nutrients.

You don't get high fives, but I hope this will be a help your puerile needs.


13
Sorry, but if you don't think producing animal foods on nothing but pasture under a rotational system isn't sustainable then you are a special kind of stupid.
The way you are doing it is not sustainable.
14
Its a word used to describe a thing, to distinguish it from other things. What's so lolworthy about it?
It just never ceases to amaze me the things you guys get twisted up about.   With me you've got a guy who is actually trying to create a new way of raising animals that's better than the industrial model and I think you guys don't like the industrial model yet you can't even give me a single high-five for my efforts.   All you can focus on is things I'm doing wrong and this is probably not even something I'm doing wrong.  It's quite bizarre behavior. I can only account for it by referring to "the Darwin club."
You don't get high fives for efforts, especially obviously wasted efforts.

You get high fives for achievements.

You've had a few, very few, and and at least most of us have acknowledged that.
15
A relevant thing, no less.

But we all know the Davination of lol.
16
Politics and Current Events / Re: Comic relief thread
18
"THE FUCKING PRACTICES WE HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT FOR SEVERAL YEARS AND YOU HAVE IGNORED."

Such as?

Name one.
Didn't you read the messages? You should be able to name plenty.

The major one is your goatschwitz. Put up a fucking decent fucking fence and fucking let them be goats instead of fucking breaking their spirit.  No, what they do now when you let them out of their cage is irrelevant because you've already broken them.  No, there's no evidence to support any claims that goatschwitz is better for the pasture than other methods.  No, there's no evidence that you are avoiding parasites and disease in your torture chamber.  The only result you have  is that it makes you happy.
Hahaha.  That's what I thought. What a fucking maroon you are.  In other words, you want me to do the same thing every other goat owner on the planet is doing.  Which has contributed to kids leaving small family farms in droves.

One of my goals is to make animal husbandry fun ... a nice balance of happiness for both the animal owners AND the animals.  If we cannot make it more enjoyable / less work for the humans involved, then fewer and fewer people will want to manage farm animals and thus more and more animals will end up in factory farms.

Bottom line .... YOU and your ilk are the animal abuse advocates here.

Not me.

I'm the one trying to lead humanity OUT of Industrial Farm Animal Hell.
You are not achieving happiness for the animals, you don't give a shit about their mental state.

Your fantasy about why people abandon small farms is just that.  Fantasy The decline of small farms is for a complex mixture of many reasons. "It's not fun" is way down on the list, if it's on the list at all.

No, I don't want you to do the same thing every other goat owner on the planet is doing.  Partly because there's a wide variety of practices even among just small farms.  You have no clue what those practices are. It's likely some of them or some combination of parts of them are far more successful than goatschwitz, especially for the mental and physical health of the animals.

No matter what you think of us or others, no matter what your goals are, you are abusing your animals.
19
"THE FUCKING PRACTICES WE HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT FOR SEVERAL YEARS AND YOU HAVE IGNORED."

Such as?

Name one.
Didn't you read the messages? You should be able to name plenty.

The major one is your goatschwitz. Put up a fucking decent fucking fence and fucking let them be goats instead of fucking breaking their spirit.  No, what they do now when you let them out of their cage is irrelevant because you've already broken them.  No, there's no evidence to support any claims that goatschwitz is better for the pasture than other methods.  No, there's no evidence that you are avoiding parasites anbd disease in your torture chamber.  The only result you have  is that it makes you happy.
20
Your efforts haven't done anything to help pig farmers, other than show them how not to do it.
See this is the "glass half empty" attitude that characterizes most of you.  Focus on a mishap I have had instead of focusing on all the successes.  Shitty way to go through life.
Your entire"system" is a mishap.  However, you have had a few successes which have been appropriately acknowledged.
21
Well then she should try not being such a bitch about it ... step 1 would be a huge attitude adjustment ... acknowledging my efforts at fixing the problems which plague traditional small animal husbandry and are frankly THE reason many fail at it and head for the city.
She has not been bitchy and has been incredibly polite and patient until sometimes your asshole behavior and lies push her too far.

She has acknowledged your efforts many times and praised your overall goal as one well worth achieving. She and others have been criticizing[1] the absolutely moronic ways you've chosen to achieve that goal, stemming from your determination to avoid learning anything and caring solely for your convenience rather than considering the needs of your animals.
With plenty of thoughtful discussion and evidence and reasoning, to which you reply "lol".
22
The "fucking idiots" are the people like you who are advocating traditional goat and rabbit husbandry


OK then what the hell ARE you advocating?
No doubt ninja'd but I have to do it:

THE FUCKING PRACTICES WE HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT FOR SEVERAL YEARS AND YOU HAVE IGNORED.
23
I'm still waiting for you to grow a pair and respond in the 14C thread.

BTW, Alfonso's comment made perfect sense. He was pointing out your typical cowardice in not acknowledging your lie about Borealis' "one woman crusade.