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Topic: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies (Read 2830 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • Pingu
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #100
I guess if you skipped over all the obvious differences and focused on the most important one, you'd have to say that humans appear to be a composite, whereas all other creatures appear to NOT be a composite.  A composite of what?  Well a composite of something other-wordly (I call it a spirit) which interfaces with the body.

Right.  So for you, the reason not to kill a human is because a human has a spirit, right? And as that spirit might take up residence as early as conception, then it would be safest to regard "as murder" abortion at any stage of pregnancy?

That's essentially the Catholic church's take - not that "ensoulment" definitely happens at conception, but that as we don't know when it happens, it's best to draw the line at conception.

Would you agree?
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #101
Ya

  • ffejrxx
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #102
How do you know other animals don't have a "spirit" Dave? How do you know other humans have one? Maybe *I* don't.

are spirit and soul the same thing?
if so i sold mine for a candybar

  • Pingu
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #103
Ya

OK.  So you would also, then, agree, that your criterion is essentially a religious one, right?  You believe that human beings have a separate soul, and that some point during development, perhaps at conception, perhaps a little later, that soul becomes associated in some way with the developing human organism, right?

There are, however, other views of when developing human organism becomes "special" - special in a way that we are morally obliged not simply to spare the organism suffering, as we should (I think) with any sentient organism, but because of something unique about it as human being.

This is why simply telling other people that ABORTION IS MURDER is a bit crass.  Sure, abortion is murder if what we are killing is a human being. But when that human organism becomes a human being is a matter for honest debate.  A person of faith may simply believe, as a matter of faith, that that moment is conception, or soon thereafter.  Or, alternatively, whether or not that person is religious, they might hold the view that a person becomes human when they are capable of distintively human mental activity.

In which case, they might draw the line considerably later. 

So all I'm saying, Dave, isn't that you are wrong that abortion is murder, but that it isn't a slam dunk.  It's essentially a religious position, which not everybody shares.  There are decent arguments to make that there are other morally defensible times to draw the line, or even several lines.

People who don't share your view don't lack empathy.  They simply don't hold your religious belief.




I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #104
... seem ... seem ... seem ... whatever ...

How many persons will be convinced?

Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #105
My criterion is not religious. I am not religious. My criterion is scientific. Theology was once called "The Queen of Sciences" and it should be called that again.

  • Photon
  • I interfere with myself
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #106
Mainly because humans seem to have something immaterial outside of themselves pressing them to do things they "ought" to do, whereas animals don't seem to have this.  They seem only to operate on instinct.  Humans have instinct, but sometimes this force - whatever it is and wherever it comes from - overrides instinct in humans.
Disagree. See Phineas Gage.

Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #107
"Pendulum."

Feminism has  accomplished some good things  especially where women were oppressed but it has also accomplished some bad things.  One such bad thing is that some women step far beyond "equality" and act like they are the queen.  that attitude often comes off very bitchy and manipulative and I react very strongly to that.
Tell me more. A woman's place is in the home. Men should be out splitting and stacking firewood and coming inside for a sammich. 
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #108
My criterion is not religious. I am not religious. My criterion is scientific. Theology was once called "The Queen of Sciences" and it should be called that again.
Good God you are an idiot Dave
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • uncool
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #109
Dave, what, precisely, do you think Pingu means when she says "So you would also, then, agree, that your criterion is essentially a religious one, right?"

  • Zombies!
  • We're in the pipe, five by five.
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #110
My criterion is not religious. I am not religious. My criterion is scientific. Theology was once called "The Queen of Sciences" and it should be called that again.
Yeah, but after a number of high profile conflicts with real science, the church learned it's place.
Galileo, for instance.
Dave Hawkins on 11-23-2015, The  poor boy is easily triggered: 
Also it doesn't help that you are a woman ... I've had some bad experiences with super controlling manipulative women in my life and I now react really strongly to that.

  • RickB
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #111
I guess if you skipped over all the obvious differences and focused on the most important one, you'd have to say that humans appear to be a composite, whereas all other creatures appear to NOT be a composite.  A composite of what?  Well a composite of something other-wordly (I call it a spirit) which interfaces with the body.

"Obvious differences", such as what?  Different reproductive methods?  Different cellular physiology?  Different cellular chemical/physical dynamics? 

In what way do non-human animal 'machines' differ from human animal 'machines'?
Are non-human animal 'machines' killed (turned off) in different ways than human animal 'machines'?


  • Martin.au
  • Thingyologist
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #112
I guess if you skipped over all the obvious differences and focused on the most important one, you'd have to say that humans appear to be a composite, whereas all other creatures appear to NOT be a composite.  A composite of what?  Well a composite of something other-wordly (I call it a spirit) which interfaces with the body.

My criterion is not religious. I am not religious. My criterion is scientific. Theology was once called "The Queen of Sciences" and it should be called that again.

Hahahaaa.
"That which can be asserted with evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." (Dave Hawkins)

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #113
Mainly because humans seem to have something immaterial outside of themselves pressing them to do things they "ought" to do, whereas animals don't seem to have this. They [animals] seem only to operate on instinct.  Humans have instinct, but sometimes this force - whatever it is and wherever it comes from - overrides instinct in humans.

I wouldn't be so sure on either of those propositions.

Many of the actions people think are exclusively human, and not instinctual, turn out to be, or may very well be, rooted in instinct after all. And there are many recorded actions of animals that appear to ignore or transcend what we think are very strong instincts. The divisions are not as clear as you believe them to be.

People who strictly adhere to Abrahamic faiths believe humans have souls and animals do not. But many other cultures embrace religious beliefs that contend animals (and even trees and rocks and bodies of water) do have spirits.

Even many professing Christians believe, against the teachings, that animals have souls or spirits. Why else, they might argue, does God care about the fallen sparrow?

Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #114
My criterion is not religious. I am not religious. My criterion is scientific. Theology was once called "The Queen of Sciences" and it should be called that again.
Good God you are an idiot Dave
one of these days the lightbulb is going to come on for you and you are going to realize that it's been you that has been the idiot all these years, not me.

  • Zombies!
  • We're in the pipe, five by five.
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #115
My criterion is not religious. I am not religious. My criterion is scientific. Theology was once called "The Queen of Sciences" and it should be called that again.
Good God you are an idiot Dave
one of these days the lightbulb is going to come on for you and you are going to realize that it's been you that has been the idiot all these years, not me.
And you are going to spend the rest of your life running from discussions about stuff like C14 and Varves, because you know you're wrong.
You run and run from discussions, Dave.  Run from questions, run from accountability for what you say, run from bets.
You survive by running from the truth.
Dave Hawkins on 11-23-2015, The  poor boy is easily triggered: 
Also it doesn't help that you are a woman ... I've had some bad experiences with super controlling manipulative women in my life and I now react really strongly to that.

  • RickB
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #116
No dave.  Show how non-human 'machine' animals are different from human 'machine' animals.  It's a simple question.  But you cannot show any supporting evidence for your differentiation.  That is no definition/evidence for spirits or souls.  Only 'it seems' or 'it appears'  bullshit.


  • RickB
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #117
My criterion is not religious. I am not religious. My criterion is scientific. Theology was once called "The Queen of Sciences" and it should be called that again.
Good God you are an idiot Dave
one of these days the lightbulb is going to come on for you and you are going to realize that it's been you that has been the idiot all these years, not me.


No , Dave.  You are about as scientific as a slug (with equivalent understanding).  Your argument is entirely religious.  So much so that you think that  adult males fucking 12 year olds in justified by religion.


Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #118
I'm out. Not engaging with this idiot.

  • Zombies!
  • We're in the pipe, five by five.
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #119
So Dave does what he always does, he doesn't try to argue facts.  He doesn't break out statistics.
He runs. :happydance:
Dave Hawkins on 11-23-2015, The  poor boy is easily triggered: 
Also it doesn't help that you are a woman ... I've had some bad experiences with super controlling manipulative women in my life and I now react really strongly to that.

  • RickB
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #120
I'm out. Not engaging with this idiot.

I guess you think that I should be complementing you on everything that you do?

You are the greatest at killing animal 'machines' for no reason what so ever!!

You are the greatest at raping pre-adolescent girls!!

You are the greatest at murdering unborn fetuses!!!  Through your support of the Christian Dog.

 ETA:  Is that enough support for your position, Dave???


Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #121
My criterion is not religious. I am not religious. My criterion is scientific. Theology was once called "The Queen of Sciences" and it should be called that again.
Good God you are an idiot Dave
one of these days the lightbulb is going to come on for you and you are going to realize that it's been you that has been the idiot all these years, not me.
One of these days, perhaps it will.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #122
I'm out. Not engaging with this idiot.

I guess you think that I should be complementing you on everything that you do?

You are the greatest at killing animal 'machines' for no reason what so ever!!

You are the greatest at raping pre-adolescent girls!!

You are the greatest at murdering unborn fetuses!!!  Through your support of the Christian Dog.

 ETA:  Is that enough support for your position, Dave???


This guy ^^^^^^^^

  • RickB
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #123
I'm out. Not engaging with this idiot.

I guess you think that I should be complementing you on everything that you do?

You are the greatest at killing animal 'machines' for no reason what so ever!!

You are the greatest at raping pre-adolescent girls!!

You are the greatest at murdering unborn fetuses!!!  Through your support of the Christian Dog.

 ETA:  Is that enough support for your position, Dave???


This guy ^^^^^^^^


I don't understand.  Is Dave saying that he is not the greatest at these things and we should just summarily discount his assertions?


  • Pingu
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #124
My criterion is not religious. I am not religious. My criterion is scientific. Theology was once called "The Queen of Sciences" and it should be called that again.

I know you are not religious. But you have religious beliefs.

And no, theology is not science.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.