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  • SkepticTank
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Driverless cars keep getting closer
Google, Tesla, Uber (partnered with Volvo) and Ford are all working on it.

Uber bringing driverless cars to Pittsburgh.

Ford says within 5 years.

  • Monad
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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #1
Just as long as they don't get closer to me

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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #2
I wonder how driverless cars deal with the trolly problem.
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  • MikeB
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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #4
So will it be illegal to have blood alcohol over xx if you are being "driven" all the way home by one of these marvels?

ETA of course it will, you have to be ready to intervene at any moment (so far in the technology) and you wouldn't be checked by police unless something had gone wrong along the way.  Heh, how does a self-driving car handle a sobriety checkpoint?
  • Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 05:25:06 PM by MikeB

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Reply #5

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Reply #6

Quote
Simply eliminating the drivers from cars, and keeping everything else about our system the same, will be a disaster. Picture zombie cars -- those with no one in them -- clogging our cities and our roads, because it will be cheaper to keep them moving than to pay for expensive urban parking, and cheaper to bring retail to a customer than to pay rent on a retail store. While the number of vehicle miles driven skyrockets, our transportation infrastructure revenues, dependent on the gas tax, parking, fees, and fines will disappear. Unemployment will spike as professional drivers will be be laid off in droves. It will be a nightmare of pollution, congestion, and social unrest.

The traffic alone will make people curse the technologists who brought AVs to our streets. Right now, our "congested" roads and cities are mostly filled by individuals driving alone in their cars (75 percent of all trips). Just imagine our streets and your frustration when 50 percent of the cars have no people in them at all.

When we don't have to drive them, we'll use our cars more. My 2004 Prius costs me about $1.50 for an hour of run time. It will be cheaper to have my car double-park or circle blocks rather than pay for a parking meter or, heaven forbid, pay for parking in a downtown garage. It'll also be cheaper to have my car pick up pizza or drop off dry cleaning than to tip a delivery person. Endless double-parking and block circling already happens in places where the cost of a human driver is either very cheap (think Delhi) or expense is irrelevant (think about luxury black cars in New York City).

  • ksen
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Reply #7
I'm waiting for posterless messageboards.

  • MikeB
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Reply #8

Quote
Simply eliminating the drivers from cars, and keeping everything else about our system the same, will be a disaster. Picture zombie cars -- those with no one in them -- clogging our cities and our roads, because it will be cheaper to keep them moving than to pay for expensive urban parking, and cheaper to bring retail to a customer than to pay rent on a retail store. While the number of vehicle miles driven skyrockets, our transportation infrastructure revenues, dependent on the gas tax, parking, fees, and fines will disappear. Unemployment will spike as professional drivers will be be laid off in droves. It will be a nightmare of pollution, congestion, and social unrest.

The traffic alone will make people curse the technologists who brought AVs to our streets. Right now, our "congested" roads and cities are mostly filled by individuals driving alone in their cars (75 percent of all trips). Just imagine our streets and your frustration when 50 percent of the cars have no people in them at all.

When we don't have to drive them, we'll use our cars more. My 2004 Prius costs me about $1.50 for an hour of run time. It will be cheaper to have my car double-park or circle blocks rather than pay for a parking meter or, heaven forbid, pay for parking in a downtown garage. It'll also be cheaper to have my car pick up pizza or drop off dry cleaning than to tip a delivery person. Endless double-parking and block circling already happens in places where the cost of a human driver is either very cheap (think Delhi) or expense is irrelevant (think about luxury black cars in New York City).

Oh don't worry about that, we will quickly pass laws about letting your car roam driverless and you will receive a huge fine.  Really huge and you will be dragged from work in handcuffs!

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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #9
That article is a good read if you don't freak out about the one paragraph that MikeB shared.
  • Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 07:50:00 PM by SkepticTank

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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #10
Quote
The cost of "fueling" and maintaining electric cars is one tenth that of regular combustion engine cars

:skeptical:

Quote
Our current system for raising money to pay for our transportation infrastructure in the US has been broken for years. The federal gas tax has been stalled at 18.4 cents a gallon since 1993. The US has the second lowest gas tax rate in the world. Our fuel prices are half those experienced by Europeans.
Ok, this is I mostly accept.  So if all the above is true, why haven't electric vehicles taken off in Europe?  The US definitely has to change the way we pay for roads and bridges.  Gas taxes (per mile driven) have been declining forever as vehicles have gotten more efficient and factoring in hybrids and electrics something has to change soon.
  • Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 08:13:12 PM by SkepticTank

  • MikeB
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Reply #11
That article is a good read if you don't freak out about the one paragraph that MikeB shared.

Well oops, I just read quickly what was right there.  :)

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Reply #12
Quote
The cost of "fueling" and maintaining electric cars is one tenth that of regular combustion engine cars

:skeptical:
All else being equal, fuel at $2.00/gallon is ~$15/MMBtu (million Btu's).  Electricity through the wire at the house is $0.10/kWh which is ~$30/MMBtu.
However, Electric car energy efficiency is about 3x better than internal combustion (Carnot cycle) efficiency.

So fuel costs about Two-Thirds for electric versus gasoline.

Maintaining electric cars is a bit more of a stretch for cost.  You could make the case that the body/suspension/drive train costs are the same but the engine/transmission costs  for internal combustion are much higher.  However, the electrical costs are larger for an EV.

I too am skeptical of the claimed 10x savings for fuel/repairs.

  • Old Dan
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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #13


And take a gander at this, yall: http://johnnycab.com/

Quote
Ride sharing from the future...
JohnnyCab is currently not available in your area.
If you would like to be notified when it is, please complete the form below.

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Reply #14
Wow, someone created a website.  Impressive.

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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #16
So will it be illegal to have blood alcohol over xx if you are being "driven" all the way home by one of these marvels?

ETA of course it will, you have to be ready to intervene at any moment (so far in the technology) and you wouldn't be checked by police unless something had gone wrong along the way.  Heh, how does a self-driving car handle a sobriety checkpoint?

In Ontario if you are in the same parking lot as your car with your keys in your pocket you can be considered in care and control of your car.  (assuming there is no driver in the car)

  • MikeB
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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #17
I hope you are not saying that you can be charged with any crime if you have had drinks, and have your car keys, but had decided not to drive and were waiting to sober up, or waiting for a friend to drive.

If the parking lot is posted "No loitering" then they have you.

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Reply #19
I hope you are not saying that you can be charged with any crime if you have had drinks, and have your car keys, but had decided not to drive and were waiting to sober up, or waiting for a friend to drive.

If the parking lot is posted "No loitering" then they have you.

How would the cop know that you were not just waiting for him to leave?

Personally with DUI going up, I would love to have a law that if you drink, you have to show proof of being able to get home without driving.

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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #20
I hope you are not saying that you can be charged with any crime if you have had drinks, and have your car keys, but had decided not to drive and were waiting to sober up, or waiting for a friend to drive.

If the parking lot is posted "No loitering" then they have you.

How would the cop know that you were not just waiting for him to leave?

Personally with DUI going up, I would love to have a law that if you drink, you have to show proof of being able to get home without driving.


In Soviet Russia you are guilty until proven innocent. 

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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #21
I hope you are not saying that you can be charged with any crime if you have had drinks, and have your car keys, but had decided not to drive and were waiting to sober up, or waiting for a friend to drive.

If the parking lot is posted "No loitering" then they have you.

How would the cop know that you were not just waiting for him to leave?

Personally with DUI going up, I would love to have a law that if you drink, you have to show proof of being able to get home without driving.


In Soviet Russia you are guilty until proven innocent. 

It's also illegal to have burglary tools here, or bomb making tools.

At what point does someone become guilty of negligence?
Only after something has gone wrong?

  • MikeS
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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #22
At a police station near you ....


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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
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Reply #24

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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #25
https://medium.com/@tanayj/self-driving-cars-and-the-trolley-problem-5363b86cb82d#.x60ovmmud

tl;dr:  No.

eta:  Actually I like Mike's article a little better.
  • Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 09:28:41 AM by SkepticTank

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Reply #26

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Reply #27
It would be far easier to program all vehicles to hit/maim any human in their direct pathway.  That way we would all know exactly how the car would act/react in these situations; no ambiguity.

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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #28

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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #29
that's gonna make sure city road crews keep the brush trimmed away from stop signs.
Love is like a magic penny
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if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #30
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/jun/23/will-your-driverless-car-be-willing-to-kill-you-to-save-the-lives-of-others

Before the study, the researchers suspected that the best way to make sure driverless cars are as safe as possible was through government regulation. But the surveys found most people objected to the idea. If regulations forced manufacturers to install moral algorithms that minimised deaths on the road, the majority of people said they would buy unregulated cars instead.
People are assholes. Film at eleven. At that point, I think we're better off just lying to people and telling them that the car does what they want it do, but it's really more moral than they are.

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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #31
Quote
The cost of "fueling" and maintaining electric cars is one tenth that of regular combustion engine cars

:skeptical:
All else being equal, fuel at $2.00/gallon is ~$15/MMBtu (million Btu's).  Electricity through the wire at the house is $0.10/kWh which is ~$30/MMBtu.
However, Electric car energy efficiency is about 3x better than internal combustion (Carnot cycle) efficiency.

So fuel costs about Two-Thirds for electric versus gasoline.

Maintaining electric cars is a bit more of a stretch for cost.  You could make the case that the body/suspension/drive train costs are the same but the engine/transmission costs  for internal combustion are much higher.  However, the electrical costs are larger for an EV.

I too am skeptical of the claimed 10x savings for fuel/repairs.

I believe IC engines operate on the Otto cycle, not Carnot, but I don't know about your other numbers off the top of my head (and I haven't got my thermodynamics texts handy to check them).

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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #32
I'm waiting for posterless messageboards.

Be the change you want to be etc.

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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #33
I believe IC engines operate on the Otto cycle, not Carnot,
You are correct sir.  But my 3x efficiency estimate is the same.

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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #34
Uber

eta: Does it bother anyone else that they don't spell it Über?
  • Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 07:49:28 AM by SkepticTank

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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #35
no

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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #36

  • osmanthus
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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #37
Team of hackers take remote control of Tesla Model S from 12 miles away

Quote
Three months since the first fatal crash involving a Tesla driving in autopilot mode, hackers have taken remote control of a Tesla Model S from a distance of 12 miles, interfering with the car's brakes, door locks, dashboard computer screen and other electronically controlled features in the high-tech car.

A team of Chinese security researchers - Samuel LV, Sen Nie, Ling Liu and Wen Lu from Keen Security Lab - were able to target the car wirelessly and remotely in an attack that could cause havoc for any Tesla driver.

The hack targeted the car's controller area network, or Can bus, the collection of connected computers found inside every modern vehicle that control everything from its indicators to its brakes. In a video demonstrating the vulnerability, the hackers targeted both the Tesla Model S P85 and Model 75D, although they said it would work on other models too.
More on the link.
Truth is out of style

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Re: Driverless cars keep getting closer
Reply #38
I was reading about Tesla today, and there was another fatal wreck in China back in January, but they're not sure whether or not Autopilot was engaged in that one.  And another non-fatal wreck (also in China I think) where Autopilot was engaged.

Both of those were before the Florida one we learned about recently.

eta:  Why the fuck would you call something "Autopilot" if it's really not intended to be much more than "lane assist" that other car companies already have.  That name seriously implies that it's self driving. Lawyers should have been all over that.

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Reply #39
but . . . chinese lawyers