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Topic: Finite chain of causality revisited (Read 584 times) previous topic - next topic

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Finite chain of causality revisited


The chain of causality cannot stretch back indefinitely because of the following reasons:

1. If the universe had no beginning, then there would be no passage of time since the universe could never get any older.

2. If the past were "endless", the present could not exist since it represents the end of the past and the beginning of the future.

3. Following on from 2), it would also take forever to reach the present moment if there was no beginning.

4. If motion represents "displacement in space-time", then this also requires that some extraneous force must have set things in motion or else there would presently be no displacement at all and everything would be at rest.

5. Any chain of causal dependence, where the cause of one thing is conditional to the effect produced by another, cannot be infinite in past duration because the dependency of causation itself requires an independent cause for it to exist in the first instance.

  • MikeS
Re: Finite chain of causality revisited
Reply #1
Singularity.

[/thread]

Re: Finite chain of causality revisited
Reply #2

  • MikeS
Re: Finite chain of causality revisited
Reply #3


The chain of causality cannot stretch back indefinitely because of the following reasons:

1. If the universe had no beginning, then there would be no passage of time since the universe could never get any older.
The universe "began" as a singularity.  Only after it "banged" was the singularity broken and time started.

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2. If the past were "endless", the present could not exist since it represents the end of the past and the beginning of the future.
The past is not "endless" but begins at the singularity.

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3. Following on from 2), it would also take forever to reach the present moment if there was no beginning.
The breaking of the singularity begins time ticking.

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4. If motion represents "displacement in space-time", then this also requires that some extraneous force must have set things in motion or else there would presently be no displacement at all and everything would be at rest.
The singularity was not stable, but still existed.  Therefore "bang" was the result and motion began.

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5. Any chain of causal dependence, where the cause of one thing is conditional to the effect produced by another, cannot be infinite in past duration because the dependency of causation itself requires an independent cause for it to exist in the first instance.
A singularity is independent of a causation loop, since it's only uni-dimensional.  It only moves forward, backward, or stays the same.

  • nesb
Re: Finite chain of causality revisited
Reply #4
I think I've said I love this argument, before, but either way. The problem is that in a universe/multiverse which has existed infinitely, has necessarily had infinite time pass at any given point in its existence. The handy thing about infinity, for secularists, is it makes anything possible, no matter how improbable, likely, or even perhaps ensured. And given limited possibilities, ensured infinite times over--probably. It's simply a mistake to try to imagine a starting point in an infinite system, or the consequences of that, since there would be none. Forever isn't an absurdity in such a system, it's the constant.

  • timewave
  • Terra Terra Terra
Re: Finite chain of causality revisited
Reply #5
I'm not a trained philosopher, so make mistakes in my rational arguments at times but.
There is some evidence from quantum physics that causality isn't as clear cut as we think it is.
And it's the thinking part of the argument that I am addressing.

Our mind evolved to work on a causal level here on earth to survive.
On the macro level we live at, that is, the Newtonian Physic level of existence.
But we are now starting to catch glimpses of physics working differently at different levels of existence and causality being brought into question on those levels.

So, to claim from a rational thought experiment that causality must have a beginning and I guess that implies an end.
Could be a Newtonian thought experiment that you are trying to apply to a quantum universe.

Even accepting MikeS's argument that there is nothing before the singularity, where did the singularity come from?
The human mind does not want to accept that there are states of physics that exist beyond its comprehension.
Yet Freedman said, if you think you understand it, you don't.


this old world keeps spinning round.

  • Doobie Keebler
  • Ridiculous Callipygous
Re: Finite chain of causality revisited
Reply #6
I think I've said I love this argument, before, but either way. The problem is that in a universe/multiverse which has existed infinitely, has necessarily had infinite time pass at any given point in its existence. The handy thing about infinity, for secularists, is it makes anything possible, no matter how improbable, likely, or even perhaps ensured. And given limited possibilities, ensured infinite times over--probably. It's simply a mistake to try to imagine a starting point in an infinite system, or the consequences of that, since there would be none. Forever isn't an absurdity in such a system, it's the constant.

I'm not sure I agree with this, but no matter. I suggest we assert an entity and feign as though it would be exempt from the very issues you've outlined. A special pleading if you will, that would nicely place a feel-good band-aid over the unknown.
"I'm over 70 and have never seen such , arrogance, incompetence and Ill -intentions as this President and his aids."    The Dotard     (posted 12 days after his 68th birthday)

Re: Finite chain of causality revisited
Reply #7
I think I've said I love this argument, before, but either way. The problem is that in a universe/multiverse which has existed infinitely, has necessarily had infinite time pass at any given point in its existence. The handy thing about infinity, for secularists, is it makes anything possible, no matter how improbable, likely, or even perhaps ensured. And given limited possibilities, ensured infinite times over--probably. It's simply a mistake to try to imagine a starting point in an infinite system, or the consequences of that, since there would be none. Forever isn't an absurdity in such a system, it's the constant.

That is absurd and illogical to claim that infinity has already elapsed. The very definition of infnity is that it is endless. The fact that space is expanding means that the universe is not infinite in extent and the fact that the universe is getting older with each moment means it is not eternal in age.

Re: Finite chain of causality revisited
Reply #8
A singularity is independent of a causation loop, since it's only uni-dimensional.  It only moves forward, backward, or stays the same.

A singularity does not obviate the need for a chain of causation. The singularity itself is in need of a cause to bring it into existence.

  • Brother Daniel
  • Global Moderator
  • predisposed to antagonism
Re: Finite chain of causality revisited
Reply #9
Klastie, do you have any understanding of ... anything at all?  Or do you just like to throw words together in a crude imitation of intellectual discourse?

Re: Finite chain of causality revisited
Reply #10
Klastie, do you have any understanding of ... anything at all?  Or do you just like to throw words together in a crude imitation of intellectual discourse?

Get the fuck out of my thread.

  • Brother Daniel
  • Global Moderator
  • predisposed to antagonism
Re: Finite chain of causality revisited
Reply #11
The latter, then.  Thanks for confirming.

Re: Finite chain of causality revisited
Reply #12
The latter, then.  Thanks for confirming.

Fuck off or I'll grab you by the pussy.

  • Brother Daniel
  • Global Moderator
  • predisposed to antagonism
Re: Finite chain of causality revisited
Reply #13
Yes, stick with rhetoric of that sort.  At your own level.

Re: Finite chain of causality revisited
Reply #14


The chain of causality cannot stretch back indefinitely because of the following reasons:

1. If the universe had no beginning, then there would be no passage of time since the universe could never get any older.

2. If the past were "endless", the present could not exist since it represents the end of the past and the beginning of the future.

3. Following on from 2), it would also take forever to reach the present moment if there was no beginning.

4. If motion represents "displacement in space-time", then this also requires that some extraneous force must have set things in motion or else there would presently be no displacement at all and everything would be at rest.

5. Any chain of causal dependence, where the cause of one thing is conditional to the effect produced by another, cannot be infinite in past duration because the dependency of causation itself requires an independent cause for it to exist in the first instance.
You've done this topic before, and were shown to be wrong.
  • Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 04:25:04 PM by Titan Baul
Cognitive Ease:
The More You Hear Something, the Easier it is to Believe

Re: Finite chain of causality revisited
Reply #15
Ugh.   Stick with Biology, Joey.  
While you were getting your PhD in virology, I got my PhD in truth detection. :wave:  Dave Hawkins