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Messages - Dave Hawkins

1
It's easy to only have maintenance-free things. Just get rid of anything you have that requires maintenance!
Yup ... that's the idea.

It is of course exactly how NATURAL selection works.  Variants that aren't robust tend not to leave offspring.  Neat system, really.


Yup
2
It's easy to only have maintenance-free things. Just get rid of anything you have that requires maintenance!
Yup ... that's the idea.
3
I proactively monitor every day.

Face it Pingu...

You did a giant face plant when you said that Allan Savory was a shyster and now you won't back down so your only recourse is to say I'm a shyster too.

Which is hilarious.
4
It IS true that Joe Hopping has developed a strain of low maintenance hair sheep. He uses a completely unforgiving culling system, such that if a ewe requires assistance or special intervention for anything, it is removed from the herd. That means intervention for parasites, vaccination, birthing, or hoof issues. They noticed early on that sheep with darker hooves required less trimming, and they preferentially bred those individuals.

The result, after about 20 years, is a relatively low maintenance hair sheep, that they don't treat, vaccinate, or hoof trim in any way. In the rare case where a hoof needs minor attention, they'll run the sheep around on concrete with herding dogs to file them down.  I was genuinely surprised they do no trimming. I would have thought that growth rate of hooves in otherwise healthy individuals would be really difficult to arrest by breeding.

Now, however, there still is variation among the sheep, and they still produce individuals requiring culling for various reasons. Dave might luck out and not have to do any intervention, but it is by no means a guarantee. 
Well congrats.  Someone here finally acknowledged the truth about this type of sheep.  And yes, I have Joe Hopping stock.
Way to miss the point.
what do you think the point was?
that in a large herd you still have culling to do.
of course you have culling to do. You are always culling. You are never done culling. Did you think I said that culling stops at some point? Why would you think that?
So you cull the stock That needs maintenance and voila - a maintenance-free flock!
Yup

Quote
Is the increase in quality of stock due to better pasture conditions or to culling? Which has more effect? How do you know?
Both

Don't know. Don't care. You just do it.
6
Yeah I'm a charlatan. I'm selling people Biz Opps for thousands of dollars.

Lol

What a fruitcake.
7
Greg Judy has cited things like earthworm count and increase in wildlife visits. Another obvious thing would be how thick and Lush and green is your grass
8
The best indicator of ecosystem health is increased carrying capacity over several years. I already posted a discussion about that. But of course there are smaller things you can do as well such as the obvious thing that Allan Savory mentioned about bare spots on your land.

 Why do you people want to know this stuff?
9
It IS true that Joe Hopping has developed a strain of low maintenance hair sheep. He uses a completely unforgiving culling system, such that if a ewe requires assistance or special intervention for anything, it is removed from the herd. That means intervention for parasites, vaccination, birthing, or hoof issues. They noticed early on that sheep with darker hooves required less trimming, and they preferentially bred those individuals.

The result, after about 20 years, is a relatively low maintenance hair sheep, that they don't treat, vaccinate, or hoof trim in any way. In the rare case where a hoof needs minor attention, they'll run the sheep around on concrete with herding dogs to file them down.  I was genuinely surprised they do no trimming. I would have thought that growth rate of hooves in otherwise healthy individuals would be really difficult to arrest by breeding.

Now, however, there still is variation among the sheep, and they still produce individuals requiring culling for various reasons. Dave might luck out and not have to do any intervention, but it is by no means a guarantee. 
Well congrats.  Someone here finally acknowledged the truth about this type of sheep.  And yes, I have Joe Hopping stock.
Way to miss the point.
what do you think the point was?
that in a large herd you still have culling to do.
of course you have culling to do. You are always culling. You are never done culling. Did you think I said that culling stops at some point? Why would you think that?
10

"So what indicators of ecosystem health are YOU using?"

Carrying capacity increase.

As I have mentioned before.

And, as I asked you before, how are you measuring carrying capacity increase?

You couldn't answer.
no, I answered. You either forgot I answered or never bothered to read it in the first place. You should really stop accusing me of incompetence when it's really you that's incompetent.
Link or retract
...
again
Learn to read and pay attention. Or else get a little humility and then maybe I might help you.
11
It IS true that Joe Hopping has developed a strain of low maintenance hair sheep. He uses a completely unforgiving culling system, such that if a ewe requires assistance or special intervention for anything, it is removed from the herd. That means intervention for parasites, vaccination, birthing, or hoof issues. They noticed early on that sheep with darker hooves required less trimming, and they preferentially bred those individuals.

The result, after about 20 years, is a relatively low maintenance hair sheep, that they don't treat, vaccinate, or hoof trim in any way. In the rare case where a hoof needs minor attention, they'll run the sheep around on concrete with herding dogs to file them down.  I was genuinely surprised they do no trimming. I would have thought that growth rate of hooves in otherwise healthy individuals would be really difficult to arrest by breeding.

Now, however, there still is variation among the sheep, and they still produce individuals requiring culling for various reasons. Dave might luck out and not have to do any intervention, but it is by no means a guarantee. 
Well congrats.  Someone here finally acknowledged the truth about this type of sheep.  And yes, I have Joe Hopping stock.
Way to miss the point.
what do you think the point was?
12
"So what indicators of ecosystem health are YOU using?"

Carrying capacity increase.

As I have mentioned before.

And, as I asked you before, how are you measuring carrying capacity increase?

You couldn't answer.
no, I answered. You either forgot I answered or never bothered to read it in the first place. You should really stop accusing me of incompetence when it's really you that's incompetent.
13
"So what indicators of ecosystem health are YOU using?"

Carrying capacity increase.

As I have mentioned before.
14
It IS true that Joe Hopping has developed a strain of low maintenance hair sheep. He uses a completely unforgiving culling system, such that if a ewe requires assistance or special intervention for anything, it is removed from the herd. That means intervention for parasites, vaccination, birthing, or hoof issues. They noticed early on that sheep with darker hooves required less trimming, and they preferentially bred those individuals.

The result, after about 20 years, is a relatively low maintenance hair sheep, that they don't treat, vaccinate, or hoof trim in any way. In the rare case where a hoof needs minor attention, they'll run the sheep around on concrete with herding dogs to file them down.  I was genuinely surprised they do no trimming. I would have thought that growth rate of hooves in otherwise healthy individuals would be really difficult to arrest by breeding.

Now, however, there still is variation among the sheep, and they still produce individuals requiring culling for various reasons. Dave might luck out and not have to do any intervention, but it is by no means a guarantee. 
Well congrats.  Someone here finally acknowledged the truth about this type of sheep.  And yes, I have Joe Hopping stock.
15
Yup.  The H is a clue.  "Holistic" for most HMG ranchers means that not only are they interested in animal performance, but they are also interested in pasture condition, i.e. they want to IMPROVE the pasture instead of slowly degrade it over time.

So I guess this ^^^^ is what you meant.

"Holistic"  apparently means wanting to improve pasture as well as improve animal performance.

Really?  That's it?


Yup
16
"According to Savory, there's quite a bit more to it than that.  My own view, as I said earlier, in a discussion from which you eventually badgered, is that you have missed a pretty important element."

Such as?

Are we talking about plant analysis again now?  If so, you are welcome to demonstrate why I'm wrong about my belief that this does not need anywhere near as much attention as you seem to think it does.  I'm all ears.

I'm talking about what "holistic" means.
Well you are welcome to define it however you want ... I'm just telling you how people like Greg Judy and Ian Mitchell-Innes define it ... which is also how I define it.
That's not actually how definitions work. If we don't all use the same one, there is no communication, no learning. Maybe that's part of your disability.
Sure it is.  In the real world (as opposed to your fantasy world) there are many shades of meaning that people attach to various words.  We only get the detailed view of what they mean when we hear them describe what they mean.

I have already done this with the word "holistic" wrt HMG grazing.  No need to ask me over and over again. (Pingu)  just read what I've already written.
17
"According to Savory, there's quite a bit more to it than that.  My own view, as I said earlier, in a discussion from which you eventually badgered, is that you have missed a pretty important element."

Such as?

Are we talking about plant analysis again now?  If so, you are welcome to demonstrate why I'm wrong about my belief that this does not need anywhere near as much attention as you seem to think it does.  I'm all ears.

I'm talking about what "holistic" means.
Well you are welcome to define it however you want ... I'm just telling you how people like Greg Judy and Ian Mitchell-Innes define it ... which is also how I define it.
18
"According to Savory, there's quite a bit more to it than that.  My own view, as I said earlier, in a discussion from which you eventually badgered, is that you have missed a pretty important element."

Such as?

Are we talking about plant analysis again now?  If so, you are welcome to demonstrate why I'm wrong about my belief that this does not need anywhere near as much attention as you seem to think it does.  I'm all ears.
19
Probably should explain to Pingy once again what HMG ranching actually is ...

To be an HMG rancher, one must ...

Say it with me ... altogether now ...

BUNCH. MOVE. REST.

Am I doing that with my animals?  Why yes I am!!

Does that make me an HMG rancher?  Why yes it does!!

See how that works?
Nope.
"Necessary but not sufficient"
See how THAT works?

You could "BUNCH. MOVE. REST" with a half-dozen  slugs.
Would that make you an "HMG rancher" ?
In theory, yes.  But why?  Do you want to raise slugs to eat?

You are an idiot.


Dave: being a mathematician includes adding, subtracting and multiplying.

Does adding subtracting and multiplying make you a mathematician?  Why no, it does not.

Savory himself has taken great pains (self-serving pains in fact) to point out that not any old rotational grazing or mob-grazing is HMG.  HMG has to have some extra special something. 

Perhaps the H is a clue.
Yup.  The H is a clue.  "Holistic" for most HMG ranchers means that not only are they interested in animal performance, but they are also interested in pasture condition, i.e. they want to IMPROVE the pasture instead of slowly degrade it over time.

"Holistic" can also carry a broader meaning and does for some ranchers.  But what I've stated above is the most common.
20
Probably should explain to Pingy once again what HMG ranching actually is ...

To be an HMG rancher, one must ...

Say it with me ... altogether now ...

BUNCH. MOVE. REST.

Am I doing that with my animals?  Why yes I am!!

Does that make me an HMG rancher?  Why yes it does!!

See how that works?
Why, no, no it doesn't. It makes you a pathetic wanna be.
See how that works?
Lol

OK, Sea Star ... you believe whatever you want to believe
I generally do. And I base what believe on the best evidence I can find. Not the 'evidence' that supports what I 'want to believe', but the evidence that most closely comports with reality. Evidence that is verifiable.
I don't believe stuff in order to make me feel better, or smarter. I have intellectual integrity that requires me to understand, not just accept.

Good for you!

Then you'll be calling Greg or Joe also about the hoof trimming thing, no doubt. 

We look forward to your report here.
21
Probably should explain to Pingy once again what HMG ranching actually is ...

To be an HMG rancher, one must ...

Say it with me ... altogether now ...

BUNCH. MOVE. REST.

Am I doing that with my animals?  Why yes I am!!

Does that make me an HMG rancher?  Why yes it does!!

See how that works?

Do you know the difference between the meanings of the words "necessary" and "sufficient", Dave?

It MAY be the case that HMG as defined by Savory necessitates some kind of "bunch move rest" grazing system.  However, nothing in Savory's description of HMG implies that "bunch move rest" is SUFFICIENT.  There's that whole "holistic" thing for a start.  And the emphasis on a specific approach to DECISION-MAKING.

Have you even read any of Savory's articles on HMG?


Good point. 

Bunch. Move. Rest.

is NOT sufficient.

It's just an easy way to state the most important principles.

But as you rightly observe, you would not achieve optimum results if you, for example, didn't bunch tightly enough for your particular situation ... or moved to quickly or too slowly for your particular situation ... or you overrested or underrested the paddocks after moving, and so on.

Yes, of course I've read Savory.  His books were our textbooks in class.
22
Probably should explain to Pingy once again what HMG ranching actually is ...

To be an HMG rancher, one must ...

Say it with me ... altogether now ...

BUNCH. MOVE. REST.

Am I doing that with my animals?  Why yes I am!!

Does that make me an HMG rancher?  Why yes it does!!

See how that works?
Nope.
"Necessary but not sufficient"
See how THAT works?

You could "BUNCH. MOVE. REST" with a half-dozen  slugs.
Would that make you an "HMG rancher" ?
In theory, yes.  But why?  Do you want to raise slugs to eat?

You are an idiot.
23
By the way ... we had an ice storm this week which covered all my grass with ice ... did my animals go hungry?  Why no! They didn't.  You could tell that they didn't like it much ... but - like school boys dutifully eating their spinach because their mother makes them - they ate it.

Right.

And what would they have done "in the wild", Dave? 


In the wild, they would have done exactly what my animals did.  Eat it because it's the only thing available. 

But it wouldn't be "the only thing available" in the wild, would it?  They'd be free to find forage in a more sheltered spot, for instance.

I'm mimicking Nature, remember?
Quote
Or even on a half-way decent farm?
By this, I assume you mean a farm like one of my neighbors who I drive by every day who have too many animals crowded onto a totally overgrazed paddock covered in poop and the animals are crowded around a hay rack eating nasty dry hay.

In my opinion, that's not "halfway decent" at all.

No, I didn't mean that, and it's not what I said. Obviously I don't mean your neighbours because I have no idea what your neighbours do.  I mean any humane farmer who provides a shelter for her animals, and non-frozen forage when the ground is frozen.  You don't need to overgraze your pasture in order to provide hay or turnips.  And your adjective "nasty" could just as well apply to your icy grass that you fully admit they didn't like much.

Well, last week my neighbour's sheep clearly preferred the pile of "nasty dry" hay and turnips their farmer had thoughtfully provided to the frozen and waterlogged but NOT overgrazed pasture that was the alternative.


Animals in the wild in my area would not have had much choice this week but to eat icy forage.  The area blanketed by ice was quite extensive ... hundreds of miles.

Farmers in my area do not provide shelter for their animals - cows and horses and sheep at least which is what I see driving around close to my place.  I also don't know of any that provide turnips.  The ones around here provide hay ... and I've had experience with the hay around here.  It varies greatly in quality ... the average is not very nice and my animals have always preferred grass in the ground even if it's largely brown.  Now it's true they might prefer average dry hay over my icy grass ... but keep in mind that icy grass is very rare so my animals are usually getting very yummy food while my neighbors animals are getting very average food all winter long.
24
Probably should explain to Pingy once again what HMG ranching actually is ...

To be an HMG rancher, one must ...

Say it with me ... altogether now ...

BUNCH. MOVE. REST.

Am I doing that with my animals?  Why yes I am!!

Does that make me an HMG rancher?  Why yes it does!!

See how that works?
Why, no, no it doesn't. It makes you a pathetic wanna be.
See how that works?
Lol

OK, Sea Star ... you believe whatever you want to believe
25
We HMG ranchers do practice the scientific method ... but we are more efficient at it than you octohatter types ... so you guys are way behind slogging in the mud trying to catch up with us and due to your brainwashing, you think you are out in front of us.  Lol
I AM NOT AN OCTOHATTER!
I'm still way ahead of you though.
These are my mob-grazing neighbors!
http://nrcs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=c49d653f05ac46098d6ff8bbf6215cbf
Awesome. Looks like the real deal!
Quote

Pete gestures in a big circle beneath our feet.

"All of this is orchard and rye grass, and there's plantain and chicory. That yellow flower back there is turnip."

As he names each plant, he plucks a specimen and occasionally samples one.

Looks like he's another HMG practitioner full of useless knowledge about what is growing on his land.
Not useless.  There's hobby value.
Um no. The Wahls don't do hobbies. They're 110% business. It's certainly more than light pleasant exercise for them!
Nice preaching.  But you really don't know whether all this plant analysis is vital to their business or not.  You have just assumed that it is.  I happen to believe it's NOT vital based on my extensive exposure to people like Ian Mitchell-Innes, Greg Judy and Joe Hopping.
Lol, how is this preaching?
Because you've given me no evidence that you understand WHY they do this plant analysis.  You are just declaring that it's not a hobby, i.e. it's vital to their business.  But you have not established that.
Quote
Also, you happen to believe some really stupid thing that are easily refuted.
Such as?
Quote
Also, how do you define 'extensive exposure'? your 6 month internship?
10+ years reading their writings ... 2 paid intensive classes at Greg's ... a 6 month full time, full immersion internship at Greg's.