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  • TalkRational: the fools on this site pretend the dude with five telescopes is "a crazy old man."

Topic: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World) (Read 192565 times) previous topic - next topic

JonF, uncool, nesb, borealis, Dave Hawkins (+ 1 Hidden) and 7 Guests are viewing this topic.
  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34100
At this point I can only guess what my carrying capacity is. A dairy cow counts for at least one and a half animal units, maybe two. And I really don't know how many sheep and goats it takes to equal one animal unit ... assuming I keep all offspring on site until they reach 9 months of age, I'm guessing that 3 to 4 ewes / goats with their offspring might equal one animal unit.

Well, if you can only "guess" now, what information do you need to be able to actually calculate it?
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34101
So with what I've got now, I'm guessing I'm at about three to four animal units equivalent which means I need between 6 and 8 acres to support this group until things get really built up over the next few years.  In case I'm wrong and I'm actually overstocked, I have a safety valve of about 6 Acres of pasture on my "back 10."

  • Sea Star
  • Not an octohatter
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34102
At this point I can only guess what my carrying capacity is. A dairy cow counts for at least one and a half animal units, maybe two. And I really don't know how many sheep and goats it takes to equal one animal unit ... assuming I keep all offspring on site until they reach 9 months of age, I'm guessing that 3 to 4 ewes / goats with their offspring might equal one animal unit.
Oh, okay. What sort of measurements have you kept on pasture conditions? what metrics are you using
  • Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 02:12:14 PM by Sea Star
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Today at 07:50:40 AM
Lol
Sea Star has been trolling me this whole time.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34103
How is carrying capacity measured?
By how many animal units you can keep on a given acreage. One animal unit equals the equivalent of one 1000 pound non lactating cow

:facepalm:

How do you determine  how many animal units you can keep on a given acreage ?
For my area you start with 1/2 the conventional stocking rate and adjust from there. The conventional stocking right around here is four acres per animal unit, so my target is 2 acres per animal unit since I'm using HMG.

Over time, if I do things correctly, it should progress to one acre per animal unit or even less. Yesterday on Facebook I saw one HMG operator reporting that  one section of her pastor produces 11 tons of dry matter per year.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34104
How is carrying capacity measured?
By how many animal units you can keep on a given acreage. One animal unit equals the equivalent of one 1000 pound non lactating cow

:facepalm:

How do you determine  how many animal units you can keep on a given acreage ?
For my area you start with 1/2 the conventional stocking rate and adjust from there.
What does that MEAN ? ? ?
You keep adding animals until their health starts to measurably ( by some measure ) decline?
Or maybe subtract animals and see if their health starts to measurably ( by some measure ) improve?

Or what ? ? ?
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34105
So with what I've got now, I'm guessing I'm at about three to four animal units equivalent which means I need between 6 and 8 acres to support this group until things get really built up over the next few years.  In case I'm wrong and I'm actually overstocked, I have a safety valve of about 6 Acres of pasture on my "back 10."

And how will you know if you are overstocked if you don't know how to measure your carrying capacity?
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34106
lordy
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34107
Dammit even I could figure out how to figure out Dave's carrying capacity.

sheesh.

Then he could compare it with Greg's, or even with next year's.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34108
How is carrying capacity measured?
By how many animal units you can keep on a given acreage. One animal unit equals the equivalent of one 1000 pound non lactating cow

:facepalm:

How do you determine  how many animal units you can keep on a given acreage ?
Yesterday on Facebook I saw one HMG operator reporting that  one section of her pastor produces 11 tons of dry matter per year.

Jesus, he must be shitting constantly.  Is the pastor a big fan of warm raw goats milk too?

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34109
How is carrying capacity measured?
By how many animal units you can keep on a given acreage. One animal unit equals the equivalent of one 1000 pound non lactating cow

:facepalm:

How do you determine  how many animal units you can keep on a given acreage ?
For my area you start with 1/2 the conventional stocking rate and adjust from there.
What does that MEAN ? ? ?
You keep adding animals until their health starts to measurably ( by some measure ) decline?
Or maybe subtract animals and see if their health starts to measurably ( by some measure ) improve?

Or what ? ? ?
You check animal condition twice daily - you check for gut fill, manure condition and milk production (if lactating) - and of course you always know where you are headed next on your land and what the condition of that grass is ... I will know well in advance if I'm going to need my "safety valve" land  ... A lot will depend on how much rain we get this summer.

  • Sea Star
  • Not an octohatter
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34110
How is carrying capacity measured?
By how many animal units you can keep on a given acreage. One animal unit equals the equivalent of one 1000 pound non lactating cow

:facepalm:

How do you determine  how many animal units you can keep on a given acreage ?
For my area you start with 1/2 the conventional stocking rate and adjust from there.
What does that MEAN ? ? ?
You keep adding animals until their health starts to measurably ( by some measure ) decline?
Or maybe subtract animals and see if their health starts to measurably ( by some measure ) improve?

Or what ? ? ?
You check animal condition twice daily - you check for gut fill, manure condition and milk production (if lactating) - and of course you always know where you are headed next on your land and what the condition of that grass is ... I will know well in advance if I'm going to need my "safety valve" land  ... A lot will depend on how much rain we get this summer.
Do you keep records of gut fill, manure condition and milk production (if lactating)?
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Today at 07:50:40 AM
Lol
Sea Star has been trolling me this whole time.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34111
Milk production only, not the other. And a "real" scientist would not approve of my record-keeping with respect to milk production, but I don't care because I'm not trying to please "real" scientists. What I do serves my purposes.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34112
At this point I can only guess what my carrying capacity is. A dairy cow counts for at least one and a half animal units, maybe two. And I really don't know how many sheep and goats it takes to equal one animal unit ... assuming I keep all offspring on site until they reach 9 months of age, I'm guessing that 3 to 4 ewes / goats with their offspring might equal one animal unit.
Wow! Mr. Bluffy the Internet Wizard and Animal Husbandry Guru doesn't know the Animal Units for common animals? That's pretty odd, at least in my book. You'd think he would know them offhand, since he's raising goats and sheep and so on. Not that looking it up would take all of maybe 1 minute, as it did me.

http://web.extension.illinois.edu/ezregs/ezregs.cfm?section=viewregs_byq&QuestionID=196&searchTerm=&ProfileID=1
Quote
  (1) Brood cows and slaughter and feeder cattle multiplied by 1.0.

(2) Milking dairy cows multiplied by 1.4.

(3) Young dairy stock multiplied by 0.6.

(4) Swine weighing over 55 pounds multiplied by 0.4.

(5) Swine weighing under 55 pounds multiplied by 0.03.

(6) Sheep, lambs, or goats multiplied by 0.1.

(7) Horses multiplied by 2.0.

(8) Turkeys multiplied by 0.02.

(9) Laying hens or broilers multiplied by 0.01 (if the facility has continuous overflow watering).

(10) Laying hens or broilers multiplied by 0.03 (if the facility has a liquid manure handling system).

(11) Ducks multiplied by 0.02. 

One cow = 1.0*
Two goats = 2 x 0.1 = 0.2
Four sheep = 4 x 0.1 = 0.4
Total = 1.6.


*note, it apparently doesn't matter whether or not the cow or steer is lactating.
Are we there yet?

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34113
You're wrong Raffy

But that's nothing new

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34114
Milk production only, not the other. And a "real" scientist would not approve of my record-keeping with respect to milk production, but I don't care because I'm not trying to please "real" scientists. What I do serves my purposes.
But it has nothing to do with science.
Why the scare quotes? 
  • Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 04:33:44 PM by VoxRat
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • fredbear
  • Militantly Confused
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34115

(2) Milking dairy cows multiplied by 1.4.



*note, it apparently doesn't matter whether or not the cow or steer is lactating.


? ? ? ? ? ?
"...without considering any evidence at all - that my views are more likely - on average - to be correct.  Because the mainstream is almost always wrong" - Dave Hawkins

  • Sea Star
  • Not an octohatter
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34116
Milk production only, not the other. And a "real" scientist would not approve of my record-keeping with respect to milk production, but I don't care because I'm not trying to please "real" scientists. What I do serves my purposes.
But how would you compare between 'about half gallon' and 'almost a gallon between 2 goats'? That won't help you track each gal's supply.
I'm not sure those are the exact phrases you used, but it doesn't strike me as accurate enough for it to be meaningful.
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Today at 07:50:40 AM
Lol
Sea Star has been trolling me this whole time.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34117

(2) Milking dairy cows multiplied by 1.4.



*note, it apparently doesn't matter whether or not the cow or steer is lactating.


? ? ? ? ? ?
It said that somewhere else on the site.

So, revised figures.
One cow = 1.4
Two goats = 2 x 0.1 = 0.2
Four sheep = 4 x 0.1 = 0.4
Total = 2.0.

But the real issue isn't the actual numbers, but that Bluffy didn't know them and couldn't be arsed to look them up.
Are we there yet?

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34118
Milk production only, not the other. And a "real" scientist would not approve of my record-keeping with respect to milk production, but I don't care because I'm not trying to please "real" scientists. What I do serves my purposes.
But how would you compare between 'about half gallon' and 'almost a gallon between 2 goats'? That won't help you track each gal's supply.
I'm not sure those are the exact phrases you used, but it doesn't strike me as accurate enough for it to be meaningful.
Depends on your holistic goals.  It's meaningful for mine.

  • Photon
  • I interfere with myself
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34119
Milk production only, not the other. And a "real" scientist would not approve of my record-keeping with respect to milk production, but I don't care because I'm not trying to please "real" scientists. What I do serves my purposes.
But how would you compare between 'about half gallon' and 'almost a gallon between 2 goats'? That won't help you track each gal's supply.
I'm not sure those are the exact phrases you used, but it doesn't strike me as accurate enough for it to be meaningful.
Depends on your holistic goals.  It's meaningful for mine.

Where holism is defined as TLAR, and not actually demonstrating a goddamn thing.  There's a reason you have exactly 0 people signed up for Davetopia, you know.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34120
Lol

Rage on Photon, rage on!

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34121
Stating the obvious is hardly "raging".
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • JonF
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34122
Milk production only, not the other. And a "real" scientist would not approve of my record-keeping with respect to milk production, but I don't care because I'm not trying to please "real" scientists. What I do serves my purposes.
Which purposes obviously include not doing anything resembling scientific inquiry.
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

  • Sea Star
  • Not an octohatter
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34123
Milk production only, not the other. And a "real" scientist would not approve of my record-keeping with respect to milk production, but I don't care because I'm not trying to please "real" scientists. What I do serves my purposes.
But how would you compare between 'about half gallon' and 'almost a gallon between 2 goats'? That won't help you track each gal's supply.
I'm not sure those are the exact phrases you used, but it doesn't strike me as accurate enough for it to be meaningful.
Depends on your holistic goals.  It's meaningful for mine.

What are your 'holistic goals'?
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Today at 07:50:40 AM
Lol
Sea Star has been trolling me this whole time.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34124
Stating the obvious is hardly "raging".
Bluffy's gotta post something.
Are we there yet?