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Topic: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World) (Read 162380 times) previous topic - next topic

Pingu, Alfonso Bivouac, Dave Hawkins, Sea Star and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34050
"You might be wrong about the keys and/or you might not be using them in the way that Judy does."

Wonderful.

Explain why you think so.
Because people make mistakes. You are a person, so you make mistakes, so it is possible (which is all Pingu is arguing) that you have made a mistake.
If that is what she is arguing then she should have said that. And I would have agreed immediately.

You're wrong.

She's arguing something different.

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34051
"You might be wrong about the keys and/or you might not be using them in the way that Judy does."

Wonderful.

Explain why you think so.

Better yet .... explain what YOU think the keys are.

You just aren't getting this, are you? You asked me HOW we could determine who was right.

I suggested a method.

Now you are asking me why I think I'm right?  geez, Dave: I don't know if I'm right.  I've got some reason to think so - in other words I've got a theory, but to find out whether my theory is likely to be right, we'd need to actually test it.  My theory is that you missed a huge chunk of what Judy does (I'd say that you've missed the H part of HMG) and boiled it down to a heuristic.  A heuristic is not holistic.

But I could be wrong.  It might be that your three-word heuristic is a universal panacea, and that it is the key to Greg Judy's ennvironmental and commercial success.  And that you've distilled it to something that will deliver comparable environmental and commercial success.

So what next?  Next is: compare your success to Judy's, using the same benchmarks. Financial returns; biodiversity (do you know how to measure that?); soil organic matter; total carbon sequestration per unit area; whatever you like.  Estimate Judy's baseline and estimate yours.  Measure change over time on your property and measure Judy's.  And compare.

And let us know the results.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34052
"You might be wrong about the keys and/or you might not be using them in the way that Judy does."

Wonderful.

Explain why you think so.
Because people make mistakes. You are a person, so you make mistakes, so it is possible (which is all Pingu is arguing) that you have made a mistake.
If that is what she is arguing then she should have said that. And I would have agreed immediately.

You're wrong.

She's arguing something different.


I'm saying a) I think you are wrong (note that is different from asserting that you are wrong) and b) responding to your question as to how we could determine which of us is in fact wrong.

You seem unable to tell the difference between those two things.  And also unable to understand the basic principles of empirical scientific testing.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34053
But Pingu!
Don't you see?
There's no need for that;
Judy's already done it!

:grandpa:
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34054
You seem unable to tell the difference between those two things.  And also unable to understand the basic principles of empirical scientific testing.
He's also unable to explain why he lied about those "Caracas" refugees.      :sadyes:

He seems to be copying Trump's recipe:
Ignore questions about, and distract from, each flailure by launching a new flailure!

Hey! It's working for Trump, there's no reason to think it won't work for Dave, too!

  • Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 10:16:57 AM by VoxRat
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34055
Yeah  :sadyes:
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34056
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34057
An οὐροβόρος.
That too.
Hey!
It worked for Kekulé.
There's no reason to think it won't work for Hawkins, too!
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34058
"You might be wrong about the keys and/or you might not be using them in the way that Judy does."

Wonderful.

Explain why you think so.

Better yet .... explain what YOU think the keys are.

You just aren't getting this, are you? You asked me HOW we could determine who was right.

I suggested a method.

Now you are asking me why I think I'm right?  geez, Dave: I don't know if I'm right.  I've got some reason to think so - in other words I've got a theory, but to find out whether my theory is likely to be right, we'd need to actually test it.  My theory is that you missed a huge chunk of what Judy does (I'd say that you've missed the H part of HMG) and boiled it down to a heuristic.  A heuristic is not holistic.

But I could be wrong.  It might be that your three-word heuristic is a universal panacea, and that it is the key to Greg Judy's ennvironmental and commercial success.  And that you've distilled it to something that will deliver comparable environmental and commercial success.

So what next?  Next is: compare your success to Judy's, using the same benchmarks. Financial returns; biodiversity (do you know how to measure that?); soil organic matter; total carbon sequestration per unit area; whatever you like.  Estimate Judy's baseline and estimate yours.  Measure change over time on your property and measure Judy's.  And compare.

And let us know the results.
Well of course I'm doing that in my own way. Not in your prescribed way.

But it would be interesting to know why you think I don't understand the keys to Greg Judy's success.

The cat seems to have your tongue On that topic.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34059
"My theory is that you missed a huge chunk of what Judy does (I'd say that you've missed the H part of HMG) and boiled it down to a heuristic.  A heuristic is not holistic."

I don't think anybody here understands what this Gobbledy gook AKA squid ink is supposed to mean.

Uncool certainly didn't. Because he thinks that all you are saying is that I'm a human being subject to error.

So why don't you dumb this down for all of us poor plebs.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34060
 I'm not optimistic about you being able to explain this sensibly.

Because after all, you don't even know what the word holistic means as you have demonstrated over and over again here at this forum.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34061
"My theory is that you missed a huge chunk of what Judy does (I'd say that you've missed the H part of HMG) and boiled it down to a heuristic.  A heuristic is not holistic."

I don't think anybody here understands what this Gobbledy gook AKA squid ink is supposed to mean.

Uncool certainly didn't. Because he thinks that all you are saying is that I'm a human being subject to error.

So why don't you dumb this down for all of us poor plebs.
I understand it with no trouble at all.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34062
I'm not optimistic about you being able to explain this sensibly.

Because after all, you don't even know what the word holistic means as you have demonstrated over and over again here at this forum.
Lol. Dave, what does the word holistic mean?

Eta: apparently not this : characterized by comprehension of the parts of something as intimately interconnected and explicable only by reference to the whole
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34063
Because he thinks that all you are saying is that I'm a human being subject to error.
Part of what you might be missing is that we all know you are much more subject to error than most humans. Case in point, the fact that you thought this was a "somewhat plausible scenario":
http://talkrational.org/archive/showthread.php?p=1286634#post1286634

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34064
"My theory is that you missed a huge chunk of what Judy does (I'd say that you've missed the H part of HMG) and boiled it down to a heuristic.  A heuristic is not holistic."

I don't think anybody here understands what this Gobbledy gook AKA squid ink is supposed to mean.

Uncool certainly didn't. Because he thinks that all you are saying is that I'm a human being subject to error.

So why don't you dumb this down for all of us poor plebs.
I understand it with no trouble at all.
It really is not at all complicated.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34065
"You might be wrong about the keys and/or you might not be using them in the way that Judy does."

Wonderful.

Explain why you think so.

Better yet .... explain what YOU think the keys are.

You just aren't getting this, are you? You asked me HOW we could determine who was right.

I suggested a method.

Now you are asking me why I think I'm right?  geez, Dave: I don't know if I'm right.  I've got some reason to think so - in other words I've got a theory, but to find out whether my theory is likely to be right, we'd need to actually test it.  My theory is that you missed a huge chunk of what Judy does (I'd say that you've missed the H part of HMG) and boiled it down to a heuristic.  A heuristic is not holistic.

But I could be wrong.  It might be that your three-word heuristic is a universal panacea, and that it is the key to Greg Judy's ennvironmental and commercial success.  And that you've distilled it to something that will deliver comparable environmental and commercial success.

So what next?  Next is: compare your success to Judy's, using the same benchmarks. Financial returns; biodiversity (do you know how to measure that?); soil organic matter; total carbon sequestration per unit area; whatever you like.  Estimate Judy's baseline and estimate yours.  Measure change over time on your property and measure Judy's.  And compare.

And let us know the results.
Well of course I'm doing that in my own way. Not in your prescribed way.

Well, I didn't prescribe much, except measuring and comparing, and not assuming your conclusion.


But it would be interesting to know why you think I don't understand the keys to Greg Judy's success.

The cat seems to have your tongue On that topic.

I told you why.  It's sitting there in the post you fucking quoted.  I've bolded it and put it in bigger font it to help you see it.
  • Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 11:31:38 AM by Pingu
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • uncool
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34066
"My theory is that you missed a huge chunk of what Judy does (I'd say that you've missed the H part of HMG) and boiled it down to a heuristic.  A heuristic is not holistic."

I don't think anybody here understands what this Gobbledy gook AKA squid ink is supposed to mean.

Uncool certainly didn't. Because he thinks that all you are saying is that I'm a human being subject to error.

So why don't you dumb this down for all of us poor plebs.
I phrased my post badly. I was trying to make a distinction that you were continually misunderstanding, in terms you might understand: the distinction between correct knowledge and good epistemology. That she may think you were wrong, but that her argument was about how to determine whether that is the case at all.

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34067
"My theory is that you missed a huge chunk of what Judy does (I'd say that you've missed the H part of HMG) and boiled it down to a heuristic.  A heuristic is not holistic."

I don't think anybody here understands what this Gobbledy gook AKA squid ink is supposed to mean.

Uncool certainly didn't. Because he thinks that all you are saying is that I'm a human being subject to error.

So why don't you dumb this down for all of us poor plebs.

Oh, so now you've noticed that I did, in fact, tell you, and that no cat had got my tongue after all.

OK, as you are apparently too stupid to understand it, I'll try again:

My theory is that you missed a very important aspect of what Greg Judy does, which is notice stuff.  Like WHAT is growing, and how it reacts and changes, and what his cows like and don't like, and what they like to eat and don't like to eat. And what is happening on the margin of areas, and how that changes too.  And I think that is really important.  It's also very much part of HOLISTIC planned grazing, as described by many of the people who do it, including Savory.

Quote from: Allan Savory, apparently, although I got it via the Wayback Machine
Putting Holistic Management In Place

The Holistic Management decision-making framework uses six key steps to guide the management of resources:

1. Define what you are managing

By defining the whole, people are better able to manage it. The key is to get the right people to the table and identify the available resources, including money.

2. State what you want by creating a "holistic goal."

There are three components to a "holistic goal:" the quality of life a person or group of people want to experience; what has to be created or produced to live that life, and what must exist to sustain such a life far into the future.

3. Watch out for bare ground

The earliest indicator of ecosystem health is soil cover. If the land is bare and there are few other signs of life, it's a poorly functioning environment. Bare ground can have deep impacts for people in both urban and rural environments such as increased flooding and decreased food production.

4. Play with a full deck
There are eight tools for managing natural resources: money/labor, human creativity, grazing, animal impact, fire, rest, living organisms and technology. Grazing and animal impact have been added to the traditional land management toolbox to be used proactively as effective tools to restore ecosystem health.

5. Test your decisions

There are seven questions that can help you test decisions to ensure they are socially, environmentally and financially sound for both the short and long term.

6. Monitor proactively

At any time, assume your plan is wrong and use a feedback loop that includes monitoring for the earliest signs of failure, adjusting and re-planning.

As I said, I think you missed a huge chunk of what Judy does (I'd say that you've missed the H part of HMG) and boiled it down to those three words.  So you rig up a machine that does those three things, then bugger off for the day.

You miss out the NOTICING part, as far as I can tell, at least until it bites you in the butt.

But, as I say, I could be wrong.  But we won't know unless you figure out  how to measure, compare and stop assuming your conclusions.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34068
if dave wasn't a moron, this would help him:
Quote
Definition of heuristic
: involving or serving as an aid to learning, discovery, or problem-solving by experimental and especially trial-and-error methods

Quote
Definition of holistic
1 : of or relating to holism
2 : relating to or concerned with wholes or with complete systems rather than with the analysis of, treatment of, or dissection into parts

    holistic medicine attempts to treat both the mind and the body

    holistic ecology views humans and the environment as a single system

Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • Sea Star
  • Not an octohatter
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34069
"My theory is that you missed a huge chunk of what Judy does (I'd say that you've missed the H part of HMG) and boiled it down to a heuristic.  A heuristic is not holistic."

I don't think anybody here understands what this Gobbledy gook AKA squid ink is supposed to mean.

Uncool certainly didn't. Because he thinks that all you are saying is that I'm a human being subject to error.

So why don't you dumb this down for all of us poor plebs.
It means that your 'Bunch. Move. Rest', while a good distillation of the process, leaves out some aspects of management that may affect, even be important to, the overall system.
That's how this plebe reads it.
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Today at 07:50:40 AM
Lol
Sea Star has been trolling me this whole time.

  • Faid
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34070
I'm not optimistic about you being able to explain this sensibly.

Because after all, you don't even know what the word holistic means as you have demonstrated over and over again here at this forum.
Says the person who provided a clear renouncement of holism yesterday.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34071
"My theory is that you missed a huge chunk of what Judy does (I'd say that you've missed the H part of HMG) and boiled it down to a heuristic.  A heuristic is not holistic."

I don't think anybody here understands what this Gobbledy gook AKA squid ink is supposed to mean.

Uncool certainly didn't. Because he thinks that all you are saying is that I'm a human being subject to error.

So why don't you dumb this down for all of us poor plebs.
It means that your 'Bunch. Move. Rest', while a good distillation of the process, leaves out some aspects of management that may affect, even be important to, the overall system.
That's how this plebe reads it.
"Leaves out ..."

Such as? For example?

  • fredbear
  • Militantly Confused
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34072
"My theory is that you missed a huge chunk of what Judy does (I'd say that you've missed the H part of HMG) and boiled it down to a heuristic.  A heuristic is not holistic."

I don't think anybody here understands what this Gobbledy gook AKA squid ink is supposed to mean.

Uncool certainly didn't. Because he thinks that all you are saying is that I'm a human being subject to error.

So why don't you dumb this down for all of us poor plebs.
It means that your 'Bunch. Move. Rest', while a good distillation of the process, leaves out some aspects of management that may affect, even be important to, the overall system.
That's how this plebe reads it.
"Leaves out ..."

Such as? For example?
Are you even trying to understand what people are telling you here, Dave, or are you looking for a "gotcha! Octohatters so dum"?
"...without considering any evidence at all - that my views are more likely - on average - to be correct.  Because the mainstream is almost always wrong" - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34073
Yes, Fred, I understand that Pingu thinks I'm missing something big about why Greg Judy is successful, but she can't seem to explain why she thinks that.

  • Sea Star
  • Not an octohatter
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #34074
"My theory is that you missed a huge chunk of what Judy does (I'd say that you've missed the H part of HMG) and boiled it down to a heuristic.  A heuristic is not holistic."

I don't think anybody here understands what this Gobbledy gook AKA squid ink is supposed to mean.

Uncool certainly didn't. Because he thinks that all you are saying is that I'm a human being subject to error.

So why don't you dumb this down for all of us poor plebs.
It means that your 'Bunch. Move. Rest', while a good distillation of the process, leaves out some aspects of management that may affect, even be important to, the overall system.
That's how this plebe reads it.
"Leaves out ..."

Such as? For example?
For example, one does not move a mob to a clock and calendar. One has to take into account the condition of the pasture and the animals.
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Today at 07:50:40 AM
Lol
Sea Star has been trolling me this whole time.