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Topic: Oldest Human Remains (Read 25324 times) previous topic - next topic

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Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #200

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #201
This isn't going anywhere.

that'swhatshesaid!

  • socrates1
Interesting
Reply #202
This is something that I had not seen in other articles on this subject:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/jun/07/oldest-homo-sapiens-bones-ever-found-shake-foundations-of-the-human-story
Quote
Shea was also uneasy with the scientists combining fossils from different individuals, and comparing reconstructions of complete skulls from fragmentary remains. "Such 'chimeras' can look very different from the individuals on which they are based," he said.

  • socrates1
Re: Interesting
Reply #203
Another point:
Quote
"The idea is that early Homo sapiens dispersed around the continent and elements of human modernity appeared in different places, and so different parts of Africa contributed to the emergence of what we call modern humans today," he said.

  • socrates1
Re: Interesting
Reply #204
More:
Quote
"Homo sapiens, despite being so well known, was a species without a past until now," says María Martínon-Torres, a palaeoanthropologist at University College London, noting the scarcity of fossils linked to human origins in Africa. But the lack of features that, she says, define our species -- such as a prominent chin and forehead -- convince her that the Jebel Irhoud remains should not be considered H. sapiens.
It is rarely admitted that there is a scarcity of fossils linked to human origins in Africa.
  • Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 07:43:42 AM by socrates1

  • socrates1
Re: Interesting
Reply #205
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/African_Mitochondrial_descent.PNG/330px-African_Mitochondrial_descent.PNG

Map of early diversification of modern humans according to mitochondrial population genetics (see: Haplogroup L).

It is odd that nobody has published anything about how this claimed lineage is wrong in the light of the claims about Jebel Irhoud.

  • Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 08:58:51 AM by socrates1

Re: Interesting
Reply #206
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/African_Mitochondrial_descent.PNG/330px-African_Mitochondrial_descent.PNG

It is odd that nobody has published anything about how this claimed lineage is wrong in the light of the claims about Jebel Irhoud.
DNA is the best evidence for lineage we have, without a time machine there can be no better. To think that bone fragments can cast doubt on the lineage as evidenced by DNA is frivolous.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Interesting
Reply #207
quote author=socrates1 link=msg=160339 date=1518968374]
More:
Quote
"Homo sapiens, despite being so well known, was a species without a past until now," says María Martínon-Torres, a palaeoanthropologist at University College London, noting the scarcity of fossils linked to human origins in Africa. But the lack of features that, she says, define our species -- such as a prominent chin and forehead -- convince her that the Jebel Irhoud remains should not be considered H. sapiens.
It is rarely admitted that there is a scarcity of fossils linked to human origins in Africa.
[/quote]

[
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/African_Mitochondrial_descent.PNG/330px-African_Mitochondrial_descent.PNG

Map of early diversification of modern humans according to mitochondrial population genetics (see: Haplogroup L).

It is odd that nobody has published anything about how this claimed lineage is wrong in the light of the claims about Jebel Irhoud.
As noted by Saunt Taunga, DNA evidence is much more definitive and reliable than bits and pieces of bone originally found by a miner and given to an engineer who kept it for a bit as a souvenir. See the above emboldenized comment from your own post.

Note the map provided does not include Morocco as either an early origin or destination.


Are we there yet?

Re: Interesting
Reply #208

Re: Interesting
Reply #209
Fuck off, Doug.  Unless you really want to revisit the DNA evidence.  Why do you even bother to make a drive-by around here anymore.  Is your loneliness really that profound?


  • socrates1
L3
Reply #211
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L3_(mtDNA)
Quote
Haplogroup L3's exact place of origin is uncertain. According to the Recent African origin of modern humans (Out-of-Africa) theory, the clade is believed to have arisen and dispersed from East Africa between 84,000 and 104,000 years ago.[1] An analysis of 369 complete African L3 sequences placed the maximal date of the clade's expansion at ∼70 ka. This virtually rules out a successful exit out of Africa before 74 ka, the date of the Toba volcanic super-eruption in Sumatra.[2] The Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor for the L3 lineage has also recently been estimated to be between 58,900 and 70,200 years ago, around the time as and associated with the Out-of-Africa expansion of the ancestors of non-African modern humans from Eastern Africa into Eurasia around 70,000 years ago, and also with a similar expansion within Africa from the East of the continent.[2]

An Asia center of origin and dispersal for haplogroup L3 has also been hypothesized based on the fossil record, the similar coalescence dates of L3 and its Eurasian-distributed M and N derivative clades (~71 kya), the distant location in Southeast Asia of the oldest subclades of M and N, and the comparable age of the paternal haplogroup DE. After an initial Out-of-Africa migration of early anatomically modern humans around 125 kya, fully modern human L3-carrying females are thus proposed to have back-migrated from the maternal haplogroup's place of origin in Eurasia around 70 kya along with males bearing the paternal haplogroup E, which is also thought to have originated in Eurasia. These new Eurasian lineages are then suggested to have largely replaced the old autochthonous male and female African lineages.[4]
It would appear that the mtDNA evidence is consistent with an Out of the Middle East hypothesis.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: L3
Reply #212
Wrong forum.

Mods:
You know what to do.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • socrates1
Re: L3
Reply #213
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L3_(mtDNA)
Quote
Haplogroup L3's exact place of origin is uncertain. According to the Recent African origin of modern humans (Out-of-Africa) theory, the clade is believed to have arisen and dispersed from East Africa between 84,000 and 104,000 years ago.[1] An analysis of 369 complete African L3 sequences placed the maximal date of the clade's expansion at ∼70 ka. This virtually rules out a successful exit out of Africa before 74 ka, the date of the Toba volcanic super-eruption in Sumatra.[2] The Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor for the L3 lineage has also recently been estimated to be between 58,900 and 70,200 years ago, around the time as and associated with the Out-of-Africa expansion of the ancestors of non-African modern humans from Eastern Africa into Eurasia around 70,000 years ago, and also with a similar expansion within Africa from the East of the continent.[2]

An Asia center of origin and dispersal for haplogroup L3 has also been hypothesized based on the fossil record, the similar coalescence dates of L3 and its Eurasian-distributed M and N derivative clades (~71 kya), the distant location in Southeast Asia of the oldest subclades of M and N, and the comparable age of the paternal haplogroup DE. After an initial Out-of-Africa migration of early anatomically modern humans around 125 kya, fully modern human L3-carrying females are thus proposed to have back-migrated from the maternal haplogroup's place of origin in Eurasia around 70 kya along with males bearing the paternal haplogroup E, which is also thought to have originated in Eurasia. These new Eurasian lineages are then suggested to have largely replaced the old autochthonous male and female African lineages.[4]
It would appear that the mtDNA evidence is consistent with an Out of the Middle East hypothesis.
We are left with no actual reason to accept an Out of Africa theory.

  • Faid
Re: L3
Reply #214
Everything falls into place, as long as we accept that people with L0, L1 and L2 are not modern humans.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

Re: L3
Reply #215
Shouldn't even be a separate thread.

ETA: Shit thread. Ban OP.
Why do I bother?

  • el jefe
  • asleep till 2020 or 2024
Re: L3
Reply #216
Everything falls into place, as long as we accept that people with L0, L1 and L2 and italians are not modern humans.
:nada:

  • socrates1
Re: L3
Reply #217
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L3_(mtDNA)
Quote
Haplogroup L3's exact place of origin is uncertain. According to the Recent African origin of modern humans (Out-of-Africa) theory, the clade is believed to have arisen and dispersed from East Africa between 84,000 and 104,000 years ago.[1] An analysis of 369 complete African L3 sequences placed the maximal date of the clade's expansion at ∼70 ka. This virtually rules out a successful exit out of Africa before 74 ka, the date of the Toba volcanic super-eruption in Sumatra.[2] The Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor for the L3 lineage has also recently been estimated to be between 58,900 and 70,200 years ago, around the time as and associated with the Out-of-Africa expansion of the ancestors of non-African modern humans from Eastern Africa into Eurasia around 70,000 years ago, and also with a similar expansion within Africa from the East of the continent.[2]

An Asia center of origin and dispersal for haplogroup L3 has also been hypothesized based on the fossil record, the similar coalescence dates of L3 and its Eurasian-distributed M and N derivative clades (~71 kya), the distant location in Southeast Asia of the oldest subclades of M and N, and the comparable age of the paternal haplogroup DE. After an initial Out-of-Africa migration of early anatomically modern humans around 125 kya, fully modern human L3-carrying females are thus proposed to have back-migrated from the maternal haplogroup's place of origin in Eurasia around 70 kya along with males bearing the paternal haplogroup E, which is also thought to have originated in Eurasia. These new Eurasian lineages are then suggested to have largely replaced the old autochthonous male and female African lineages.[4]
It would appear that the mtDNA evidence is consistent with an Out of the Middle East hypothesis.
We are left with no actual reason to accept an Out of Africa theory.
The Out of Africa hypothesis has a problem with the other L haplogroups. The Out of the Middle East hypothesis does not have that problem.

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #218
My great-great-great-grandfather was no stinkin' L1-groupper, Thordammit!
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #219
Why don't you and the other Socrates go get a room at the B&B and discuss it there amongst yourselves.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #220

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #221
I was under the impression Socrates would be moving on.

Guess the wait continues!

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #222
I was under the impression Socrates would be moving on.

Guess the wait continues!
He's waiting for the cows to lap him.
Are we there yet?

  • socrates1

  • socrates1
Re: "The existing theory of how humans came to be is wrong."
Reply #224