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  • TalkRational: I guess I subconsciously just wanted to comment on some shit.

Topic: Oldest Human Remains (Read 25325 times) previous topic - next topic

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Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #50
Quote
Modern human origins continues to be one of the most hotly debated topics among anthropologists, and there is little consensus about where and when the first members of our species, Homo sapiens, became fully modern.

 https://phys.org/news/2007-03-fossil-human-growth-years.html#jCp
Would you say that from the fossils themselves it is clear that the Jebel Irhoud are not homo sapiens?

ETA:
People may find the comments attached to the phys.org article interesting.
I would say that I'm quite happy with the state of affairs where the separation between Homo salpiens and almost Homo salpiens is arbitrary, and a matter of context, convenience and personal preference.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #51
Quote
Modern human origins continues to be one of the most hotly debated topics among anthropologists, and there is little consensus about where and when the first members of our species, Homo sapiens, became fully modern.

 https://phys.org/news/2007-03-fossil-human-growth-years.html#jCp
Would you say that from the fossils themselves it is clear that the Jebel Irhoud are not homo sapiens?

ETA:
People may find the comments attached to the phys.org article interesting.
I would say that I'm quite happy with the state of affairs where the separation between Homo salpiens and almost Homo salpiens is arbitrary, and a matter of context, convenience and personal preference.
Rejecting the urge to pretend that reality is more neat and tidy than it actually is can be quite liberating. Don't you agree?

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #52
Which of these is the Neanderthal?

OR


  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #53
Would you say that from the fossils themselves it is clear that the Jebel Irhoud are not homo sapiens?
I have no idea.  It's not a field I have studied. 
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #54
Here are images of the Jebel Irhoud remains.
https://phys.org/news/2017-06-scientists-oldest-homo-sapiens-fossils.html
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Jebel_Irhoud_1._Homo_Sapiens.jpg/1200px-Jebel_Irhoud_1._Homo_Sapiens.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4sNIpjvdlj8/TdZ0q4kh9tI/AAAAAAAADwM/INzDBvkMWMk/s320/Jebel_Irhoud.jpg

Here are Neanderthal vs homo sapiens images:
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/origins/skulls/sapiens_neanderthal_comparison.gif
https://astrofella.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/neanderthals-vs-humans.png

It is incorrect to say that the facial features of Jebel Irhoud are like homo sapiens.


Funny how your source emphatically says otherwise:
Quote
Perhaps the most striking thing about the Irhoud people was their faces. These ancient people could easily have wandered around in a modern city and passed as one of us--"as long as they wore a hat," Hublin joked. Their faces and tooth shapes were modern, but their elongated skulls looked more like much earlier hominins.
Whoops! Looks like the cows are home...
This is where we left off.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #55
Would you say that from the fossils themselves it is clear that the Jebel Irhoud are not homo sapiens?
I have no idea.  It's not a field I have studied. 

Good to know.

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #56
Once Hublin saw the date, "we realized we had grabbed the very root of the whole species lineage," he says. The skulls are so transitional that naming them becomes a problem: The team calls them early H. sapiens rather than the "early anatomically modern humans" described at Omo and Herto.

Some people might still consider these robust humans "highly evolved H. heidelbergensis," says paleoanthropologist Alison Brooks of The George Washington University in Washington, D.C. She and others, though, think they do look like our kind. "The main skull looks like something that could be near the root of the H. sapiens lineage," says Klein, who says he would call them "protomodern, not modern."

The team doesn't propose that the Jebel Irhoud people were directly ancestral to all the rest of us. Rather, they suggest that these ancient humans were part of a large, interbreeding population that spread across Africa when the Sahara was green about 300,000 to 330,000 years ago; they later evolved as a group toward modern humans. "H. sapiens evolution happened on a continental scale," Gunz says.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/06/world-s-oldest-homo-sapiens-fossils-found-morocco
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #57
The Sahara was green because it was much warmer then.  When the global temperature is higher, monsoon rains happen in what is now a desert.  And animals found in Africa roamed Europe.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #58
All of that story is built on the fabrication that the Jebel Irhoud fossils are like homo sapiens. But we can see clearly from the actual fossil pictures that the fossils are not even close to being like homo sapiens.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #59
All of that story is built on the fabrication that the Jebel Irhoud fossils are like homo sapiens. But we can see clearly from the actual fossil pictures that the fossils are not even close to being like homo sapiens.
Time to move on to another aspect of this topic.

  • socrates1
First humans were in the Middle East
Reply #60
This is precisely what I have been pointing out:
https://www.livescience.com/61532-oldest-human-fossils-outside-africa.html
Quote
The researchers used three independent dating techniques on the jaw, dubbed Misliya-1, revealing that its owner lived between 177,000 and 194,000 years ago.
X-ray scans and virtual 3D models of the eight teeth still in the jaw fragment suggest that these teeth are somewhat large for modern humans, the researchers said. However, the scientists added that the shapes of the teeth clearly show that they belong to the modern human lineage as opposed to the Neanderthals, the closest extinct relatives of modern humans.
Features of this new fossil look more like those seen in current humans than in fossils of similar age from the Ethiopian sites of Omo and Herto, the researchers said.


Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #61
Time to move on indeed.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #62
BLAST time, yet again?

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #63
Which of these is the Neanderthal?

OR



This, from someone with the inability to distinguish between pterosaurs and ornithomimosaurs.


Quote from: Socrates;1954894
Quote from: Socrates;1954889
Here is an interesting pterosaur:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatlus_northropi




Looks just like our ornithomimosaur friends.
Quite striking actually.

Which one is the pterosaur and which one is the ornithomimosaur?


Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #64
See Dougie, this is what happens to a non-engaging insufferable nitwit, nobody will play with you anymore and every thread you start gets moved to ARSE within minutes.  Does that make you happy?  You could always return to your ptero-bird blog, but that non-participatory site is a fucking bore, isn't it?  What to do?
  • Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 09:03:58 PM by Dean W

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #65
BTW, the cranial details of the Misliya fossil are astounding.  Brow ridges, chin, etc.  Simply astounding.




Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #66
I'd love to engage a contributor on the subject as long as they aren't a pompous ingrate with an erroneously inflated opinion of their intellect.  Maybe when the cows come home.  Until then, fuck you Doug.

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #67
All of that story is built on the fabrication that the Jebel Irhoud fossils are like homo sapiens. But we can see clearly from the actual fossil pictures that the fossils are not even close to being like homo sapiens.
Poor "socrates".

All he has to say to support his claims is an argument of personal incredulity and ignorance. He, himself, sees no resemblance of the fossils to homo sapiens.

Then of course, he is the same person who could not tell the diffrence between pterosaurs and ornithomimosaurs, hands and feet, pelvises and shoulderblades... ::)

Meanwhile, actual scientists beg to differ:
Quote
Perhaps the most striking thing about the Irhoud people was their faces. These ancient people could easily have wandered around in a modern city and passed as one of us--"as long as they wore a hat," Hublin joked. Their faces and tooth shapes were modern
But hey! If "socrates" likes, he can provide a source that supports him in claiming the facial features of Jebel Irhoud fossils are "not even close to being homo sapiens".
With references, links and copy-pasted material, of course.

Until then...
Quote
I will accept the published material over the opinions of some people on an internet discussion group.
Aything else?

Time to move on.

Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #68
This is precisely what I have been pointing out:
https://www.livescience.com/61532-oldest-human-fossils-outside-africa.html
Quote
The researchers used three independent dating techniques on the jaw, dubbed Misliya-1, revealing that its owner lived between 177,000 and 194,000 years ago.
X-ray scans and virtual 3D models of the eight teeth still in the jaw fragment suggest that these teeth are somewhat large for modern humans, the researchers said. However, the scientists added that the shapes of the teeth clearly show that they belong to the modern human lineage as opposed to the Neanderthals, the closest extinct relatives of modern humans.
Features of this new fossil look more like those seen in current humans than in fossils of similar age from the Ethiopian sites of Omo and Herto, the researchers said.


Nobody seems willing to acknowledge the bolded point.
  • Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 03:53:12 AM by socrates1

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #69
All of that story is built on the fabrication that the Jebel Irhoud fossils are like homo sapiens. But we can see clearly from the actual fossil pictures that the fossils are not even close to being like homo sapiens.
Poor "socrates".

All he has to say to support his claims is an argument of personal incredulity and ignorance. He, himself, sees no resemblance of the fossils to homo sapiens.

Then of course, he is the same person who could not tell the diffrence between pterosaurs and ornithomimosaurs, hands and feet, pelvises and shoulderblades... ::)

Meanwhile, actual scientists beg to differ:
Quote
Perhaps the most striking thing about the Irhoud people was their faces. These ancient people could easily have wandered around in a modern city and passed as one of us--"as long as they wore a hat," Hublin joked. Their faces and tooth shapes were modern
But hey! If "socrates" likes, he can provide a source that supports him in claiming the facial features of Jebel Irhoud fossils are "not even close to being homo sapiens".
With references, links and copy-pasted material, of course.

Until then...
Quote
I will accept the published material over the opinions of some people on an internet discussion group.
Aything else?

Time to move on.


"Socrates" doesn't seem to be willing to acknowledge the bolded point.

So be it.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #70

Concerning the fossil from the Israel* area:
Quote
Features of this new fossil look more like those seen in current humans than in fossils of similar age from the Ethiopian sites of Omo and Herto, the researchers said.
Anyone care to acknowledge this point?

* in a cave called Misliya, on the slopes of Mount Carmel on the northern coast of Israel
  • Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 07:42:34 AM by socrates1

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #71
For those who may not be familiar with this subject note the other fossils from the same area:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skhul_and_Qafzeh_hominins
Quote
The Skhul/Qafzeh hominins or Qafzeh-Skhul early modern humans[1] are hominin fossils discovered in the Qafzeh and Es Skhul Caves in Israel. They are today classified as Homo sapiens, among the earliest of their species in Eurasia. Skhul Cave is on the slopes of Mount Carmel; Qafzeh Cave is a rockshelter in Lower Galilee.

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #72
All of that story is built on the fabrication that the Jebel Irhoud fossils are like homo sapiens. But we can see clearly from the actual fossil pictures that the fossils are not even close to being like homo sapiens.
Poor "socrates".

All he has to say to support his claims is an argument of personal incredulity and ignorance. He, himself, sees no resemblance of the fossils to homo sapiens.

Then of course, he is the same person who could not tell the diffrence between pterosaurs and ornithomimosaurs, hands and feet, pelvises and shoulderblades... ::)

Meanwhile, actual scientists beg to differ:
Quote
Perhaps the most striking thing about the Irhoud people was their faces. These ancient people could easily have wandered around in a modern city and passed as one of us--"as long as they wore a hat," Hublin joked. Their faces and tooth shapes were modern
But hey! If "socrates" likes, he can provide a source that supports him in claiming the facial features of Jebel Irhoud fossils are "not even close to being homo sapiens".
With references, links and copy-pasted material, of course.

Until then...
Quote
I will accept the published material over the opinions of some people on an internet discussion group.
Aything else?

Time to move on.


"Socrates" doesn't seem to be willing to acknowledge the bolded point.

So be it.
Does "socrates" care to acknowledge this?
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #73

Concerning the fossil from the Israel* area:
Quote
Features of this new fossil look more like those seen in current humans than in fossils of similar age from the Ethiopian sites of Omo and Herto, the researchers said.
Anyone care to acknowledge this point?

* in a cave called Misliya, on the slopes of Mount Carmel on the northern coast of Israel
Since the Israel fossils "look more like those seen in current humans than in fossils of similar age from the Ethiopian sites of Omo and Herto", we can conclude there is no particular reason to think that the first homo sapiens were in Africa. If anyone can present any reason to think otherwise please let us know. Otherwise we can  conclude that the first humans were from the Middle East.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #74

Concerning the fossil from the Israel* area:
Quote
Features of this new fossil look more like those seen in current humans than in fossils of similar age from the Ethiopian sites of Omo and Herto, the researchers said.
Anyone care to acknowledge this point?

* in a cave called Misliya, on the slopes of Mount Carmel on the northern coast of Israel
we
No. Just you.