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Topic: Rebuilding the Democrat Party (Read 7072 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • ksen
Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #625
The continued rage at the idea of any woman, like Kamala Harris and Elizabeth Warren, being nominated next time also makes me :hmm: a little bit!

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Who's raging about them? I've read a lot of excitement for either one. Haven't really seen anyone raging about it.

  • osmanthus
  • Administrator
  • Fingerer of piglets
Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #626
Truth is out of style

Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #627
The continued rage at the idea of any woman, like Kamala Harris and Elizabeth Warren, being nominated next time also makes me :hmm: a little bit!

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Who's raging about them? I've read a lot of excitement for either one. Haven't really seen anyone raging about it.

some people on the left don't like harris because her record as a DA includes things like denying HRT meds to trans people, levying thousand-dollar fines on parents of truant children, and declining to prosecute a banker for fraud who later donated to her campaign. so i can easily see reasons for hostility to her being a possible candidate that have nothing to do with her gender, although that is as always a convenient narrative to push to neutralize criticism.

personally i am not so down on harris, i think she has potential. yeah that record is troubling but my main problem with leftists is that i think they have really unrealistic expectations for what is possible in electoral politics. we could do a lot fucking worse.

Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #628
something i have learned is that quite a few people treat either hillary clinton herself or the leadership of the democratic party or both as basically being symbolic stand-ins for all marginalized people. not, like, they would be better at serving the interests of marginalized people. no, see, it's that when you say clinton is unpopular, you're not talking about any survey of favorability ratings, or any aspects of her personality or blemishes in her voting record, no what you are actually saying is that women and people of color and queer folks don't matter to you because nobody likes them, because clinton herself is a stand-in for all of them. there's probably some truth to that for some people who thought she was a losing candidate - witness calls to back off from "identity politics" - but this idea is all-encompassing. that's what it means, and only what it means, to say clinton is unpopular: she is unpopular because she represents all people facing identity-based oppression and you don't care about them. similarly, if you tell the bigwigs of the democratic party to "bend the knee," (which was ftr a cringe line), you are demanding that women and people of color submit to your will. it's very interesting.

So that may be what's driving some voices, but a few points:

1. The idea that a WASP whose main appeal is that she's a WASP and who's campaigned against a black man and a Jew and has had "unfortunate" gaffes where she has explicitly said that she's a better candidate because she's white and protestant is somehow now a stand-in for all the marginalized people...lol.

2. One of the major arguments in Clinton's favor was always that she was white, protestant, and conservative and thus could appeal to moderate conservative white people. I think it's important to differentiate between marginalized people siding with Clinton because they liked her policies and/or how she talked about them versus siding with Clinton because they thought she could win and weren't willing to risk losing. White conservative moderates were never going to vote for Clinton though (they hate her) and instead seem to have voted overwhelmingly for Trump. So it turns out that the one appeal of Clinton was always built on a bad understanding of how Clinton's brand plays out among demographics anyways.

This has nothing to do with "bear knee wood have wan" because there was a lot to criticize about Sanders's policies and political priorities and still is. But let's not pretend that the strategy behind Clinton's repeated campaigns hasn't been "a WASP woman is palatable to the center in ways that Blacks and Jews are not" and let's not pretend that strategy worked. No matter how unobjectionable her policies are, she was never going to be able to win that targeted demographic because of how tarnished her brand is, in a way that doesn't even apply to other women.

Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #629
yeah i don't disagree really, i'm just summarizing a set of ideas i find pretty silly!

  • meepmeep
  • Administrator
  • zombiecat queen
Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #630
The continued rage at the idea of any woman, like Kamala Harris and Elizabeth Warren, being nominated next time also makes me :hmm: a little bit!

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Rage? Who is raging about it?

Morons on the internet.

The continued rage at the idea of any woman, like Kamala Harris and Elizabeth Warren, being nominated next time also makes me :hmm: a little bit!

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
What's the objection to Warren? With the benefit of hindsight, I thought "Warren would have won" with some kind of middle ground between Bernie and Clinton.

Fuck if I know. There's always some totally unacceptable insurmountable problem. I'd vote for her or Harris or Booker. The only one I'm sour on is Cuomo because he's a pretty toxic brand even in NY.

Here's the whole quote:
Quote
"It was incredibly uncomfortable. He was literally breathing down my neck. My skin crawled," Clinton writes. "It was one of those moments where you wish you could hit pause and ask everyone watching, 'Well, what would you do?' Do you stay calm; keep smiling and carry on as if he weren't repeatedly invading your space? Or do you turn, look him in the eye and say loudly and clearly, 'Back up, you creep, get away from me. I know you love to intimidate women, but you can't intimidate me, so back up.'"

So, the reason she didn't say what she felt like saying, was because a poll was not available at the time.

That is not how I interpreted that. The point is that both of those options result in backlash.

eta it's hard for me to verbalize my visceral reaction to that part of the debate and to the discussion of it, but I'll try. With that towering like a shitbag move, Trump left her with no good options, and she knew it and am sure was extremely fucking frustrated and creeped out by it. And, yeah, I wish you could freeze moments like that and ask everyone what the fuck you're supposed to actually do about it because lots of people seem to have plenty of hypothetical answers even though they've never had to worry about that sort of thing.

We want politicians to have honest, normal reactions and to trust their instincts instead of calculating every little move. We know that lots of them calculate everything but appreciate it when they're good at making it look natural. But in a situation like this, it was basically impossible for her to be natural about her reaction. My gut instinct when confronted with this particular brand of predatory garbage male behavior is to get the fuck away as much as possible, as quickly as possible, and to treat them with extreme suspicion while hiding my anxiety and/or disgust so as not to provoke further aggressive behavior. In a debate, you can't possibly react that way. Trump may be an idiot but he's an expert bully, and I'm sure he realized there'd be no way for her to squirm out of this without looking either hysterical or beepboop.

I'm not saying that this sort of thing is the entire reason why her campaign failed so spectacularly. I agree with most of what teeth is saying - a big part of her failure is due to Hillary being Hillary and not just a woman. But sexism did play a role to some extent, and I think some of these criticisms of her are a bit unfair.
  • Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 09:09:28 AM by meepmeep

  • ravenscape
  • Administrator
  • Triggered
Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #631
Hillary being Hillary is not going to be a problem that the next Democratic candidate, whoever they are, faces.

They are going to face other problems she had to deal with, though.  A corrupt DNC, Eastern European troll farms, disenfranchisement by electoral college as well as straight up voter suppression, and foreign meddling in the voting process, itself.

I want to focus on shit that will matter in 2018, 2020 and beyond. The focus on her book, especially the focus on making it just another slap-down gives me strong vibes of sexism and belittlement.  I would really like for a non-reaction vacuum to happen to the media hype spun as her tone-deafness and blame-shifting (which is a real thing, but not the thing that matters right now). I feel like any attention to the bullshit being churned out just plays into that narrative.  The narrative is shallow and self-serving.  The reality is more complex.

But more importantly, the narrative is sucking away energy that needs to go toward leveling the playing fields for the next elections.

Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #632
I'm not saying that this sort of thing is the entire reason why her campaign failed so spectacularly. I agree with most of what teeth is saying - a big part of her failure is due to Hillary being Hillary and not just a woman. But sexism did play a role to some extent, and I think some of these criticisms of her are a bit unfair.
yeah. she's in a really shitty position when it comes to sexism because she basically has been one of the most prominent and explicitly feminist women in america and that's only made misogyny against her more intense to the point that it's almost become this background radiation that makes all discussion of her actions fraught. sometimes her defenders might be way too quick to cast criticism of her as sexist, but it's understandable too because it's so common.

  • meepmeep
  • Administrator
  • zombiecat queen
Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #633
Hillary being Hillary is not going to be a problem that the next Democratic candidate, whoever they are, faces.

They are going to face other problems she had to deal with, though.  A corrupt DNC, Eastern European troll farms, disenfranchisement by electoral college as well as straight up voter suppression, and foreign meddling in the voting process, itself.

Yeah, well said.

I care about the sexism bit of it more than talking about the Hillary things that Hillary Hillaried because if the next nominee for either president or veep is a woman, they'll be dealing with some iteration of it, too.

  • ravenscape
  • Administrator
  • Triggered
Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #634
Hillary being Hillary is not going to be a problem that the next Democratic candidate, whoever they are, faces.

They are going to face other problems she had to deal with, though.  A corrupt DNC, Eastern European troll farms, disenfranchisement by electoral college as well as straight up voter suppression, and foreign meddling in the voting process, itself.

Yeah, well said.

I care about the sexism bit of it more than talking about the Hillary things that Hillary Hillaried because if the next nominee for either president or veep is a woman, they'll be dealing with some iteration of it, too.

I think it will be near-impossible (but some will manage, I'm sure) to cast the various kinds of straight-up sexism she has faced upon another woman candidate as something deserved and justified.  She's unique in US politics in a lot of ways.

Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #635
yeah i don't disagree really, i'm just summarizing a set of ideas i find pretty silly!

yeah no I agree, but I'm not sure how much of this is actually what people think so much as something that a core group of Clinton supporters have cooked up and imposed on the rest of us because they don't want to do any introspection.

For example, I think it was obvious that Clinton's focus on identity politics was not effectively recruiting voters from the conservative moderate whites she was supposed to be uniquely able to appeal to. Pointing this out doesn't mean "stop caring about POCs" so much as it means saying "if your strategy is to appeal to suburban WASPs, this is not effective."

Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #636
well, i think that core group believes it. they seem quite sincere and impassioned about it.

Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #637
Hillary being Hillary is not going to be a problem that the next Democratic candidate, whoever they are, faces.
Well, there is one potential candidate who would have to face that problem.

Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #638
guys the pivot is real af, trump is going to switch parties in 2020 and run as a democrat. this is how the democrats can win!!

Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #639
He'd lose the primary to Hillary. Who would then lose the electoral college to Steve Bannon.

Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #640
My gut instinct when confronted with this particular brand of predatory garbage male behavior is to get the fuck away as much as possible, as quickly as possible, and to treat them with extreme suspicion while hiding my anxiety and/or disgust so as not to provoke further aggressive behavior. In a debate, you can't possibly react that way.

I think most of the audience watching on TV would have been sympathetic. I don't think she was in any real danger from Trump. He might have looked like he was going to attack her, but on live TV with so many people present? I don't think so. Your gut reaction is understandable and prudent in an office or social situation, but I'm not sure how applicable that experience is to the debate venue.

Quote
Trump may be an idiot but he's an expert bully, and I'm sure he realized there'd be no way for her to squirm out of this without looking either hysterical or beepboop.

Well, if she delivered the line like she did in her audiobook, that was pretty beepboop. But she was reading a book, not in the moment. Besides, I don't think Trump puts that much thought into his assholery. I don't think he was deliberately trying to provoke her for political advantage. He generally displays no awareness of women as conscious, feeling people with motivations unconnected to himself. I don't see any reason to suppose he had that awareness in this instance, either. Trump is the real beepboop. Reptile brain responding to external stimuli.

Quote
I'm not saying that this sort of thing is the entire reason why her campaign failed so spectacularly. I agree with most of what teeth is saying - a big part of her failure is due to Hillary being Hillary and not just a woman. But sexism did play a role to some extent, and I think some of these criticisms of her are a bit unfair.

Oh there's no doubt she was subjected to a mountain of unfair criticisms motivated by sexism. Anyone who isn't a die-hard anti-Hillary bot can see it, or be persuaded to see it. I think I'm saying the same thing teeth is saying: this was an instance of Hillary being Hillary and not just a woman. If she really had the internal conversation at that moment, or while reflecting on it later, I think that's emblematic of Hillary being Hillary: thinking too much about how to act naturally.

  • linus
Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #641
Clinton: "Back up, you creep"
Trump: "I'm watching closely you because you're a crook"

Media: Clinton is correct about the violation of debate decorum and about Trump being a creep, but she looked a little stiff when she delivered her zinger. Trump did have a good comeback, delivered without looking overprepared. Overall, this part of the debate is a draw.

Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #642
guys the pivot is real af, trump is going to switch parties in 2020 and run as a democrat. this is how the democrats can win!!
doanlad trump, welcome to ...... @theresistance!

Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #643
guys the pivot is real af, trump is going to switch parties in 2020 and run as a democrat. this is how the democrats can win!!
doanlad trump, welcome to ...... @theresistance!
welcome, mr. trump... to the #resistance

 :stuckup:

  • nesb
Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #644
Anyone else have the sense that ambient sexism, or hostility towards women's issues and the like, has died down a bit since Hillary is no longer in any position to become president? I don't think there was a grand plot to undermine her by seeding society with animosity towards women, or powerful women in particular, but maybe an unconscious reaction in people prone to it, like how Obama drove racists nuts over the course of 8 years, to where they barely bother to hide under robes anymore. He, of course, went into the White House like a meteor out of nowhere, so there was no way for preemptive excusing of racism to undermine him. During his first run.

Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #645
how would you measure such a thing

  • nesb
Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #646
Augurs?

  • ksen
Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #647
http://www.salon.com/2017/09/14/hillary-clinton-cersei-lannister/

Maybe not the comparison she should have made.

Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #648
Good news, I got an email from the new DNC chair outlining the new message and strategy that will end this national nightmare.

  • Bilirubin
  • Ain't nothing ta fuck wit'