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Messages - Dave Hawkins

1
"According to Savory, there's quite a bit more to it than that.  My own view, as I said earlier, in a discussion from which you eventually badgered, is that you have missed a pretty important element."

Such as?

Are we talking about plant analysis again now?  If so, you are welcome to demonstrate why I'm wrong about my belief that this does not need anywhere near as much attention as you seem to think it does.  I'm all ears.

I'm talking about what "holistic" means.
Well you are welcome to define it however you want ... I'm just telling you how people like Greg Judy and Ian Mitchell-Innes define it ... which is also how I define it.
2
"According to Savory, there's quite a bit more to it than that.  My own view, as I said earlier, in a discussion from which you eventually badgered, is that you have missed a pretty important element."

Such as?

Are we talking about plant analysis again now?  If so, you are welcome to demonstrate why I'm wrong about my belief that this does not need anywhere near as much attention as you seem to think it does.  I'm all ears.
3
Probably should explain to Pingy once again what HMG ranching actually is ...

To be an HMG rancher, one must ...

Say it with me ... altogether now ...

BUNCH. MOVE. REST.

Am I doing that with my animals?  Why yes I am!!

Does that make me an HMG rancher?  Why yes it does!!

See how that works?
Nope.
"Necessary but not sufficient"
See how THAT works?

You could "BUNCH. MOVE. REST" with a half-dozen  slugs.
Would that make you an "HMG rancher" ?
In theory, yes.  But why?  Do you want to raise slugs to eat?

You are an idiot.


Dave: being a mathematician includes adding, subtracting and multiplying.

Does adding subtracting and multiplying make you a mathematician?  Why no, it does not.

Savory himself has taken great pains (self-serving pains in fact) to point out that not any old rotational grazing or mob-grazing is HMG.  HMG has to have some extra special something. 

Perhaps the H is a clue.
Yup.  The H is a clue.  "Holistic" for most HMG ranchers means that not only are they interested in animal performance, but they are also interested in pasture condition, i.e. they want to IMPROVE the pasture instead of slowly degrade it over time.

"Holistic" can also carry a broader meaning and does for some ranchers.  But what I've stated above is the most common.
4
Probably should explain to Pingy once again what HMG ranching actually is ...

To be an HMG rancher, one must ...

Say it with me ... altogether now ...

BUNCH. MOVE. REST.

Am I doing that with my animals?  Why yes I am!!

Does that make me an HMG rancher?  Why yes it does!!

See how that works?
Why, no, no it doesn't. It makes you a pathetic wanna be.
See how that works?
Lol

OK, Sea Star ... you believe whatever you want to believe
I generally do. And I base what believe on the best evidence I can find. Not the 'evidence' that supports what I 'want to believe', but the evidence that most closely comports with reality. Evidence that is verifiable.
I don't believe stuff in order to make me feel better, or smarter. I have intellectual integrity that requires me to understand, not just accept.

Good for you!

Then you'll be calling Greg or Joe also about the hoof trimming thing, no doubt. 

We look forward to your report here.
5
Probably should explain to Pingy once again what HMG ranching actually is ...

To be an HMG rancher, one must ...

Say it with me ... altogether now ...

BUNCH. MOVE. REST.

Am I doing that with my animals?  Why yes I am!!

Does that make me an HMG rancher?  Why yes it does!!

See how that works?

Do you know the difference between the meanings of the words "necessary" and "sufficient", Dave?

It MAY be the case that HMG as defined by Savory necessitates some kind of "bunch move rest" grazing system.  However, nothing in Savory's description of HMG implies that "bunch move rest" is SUFFICIENT.  There's that whole "holistic" thing for a start.  And the emphasis on a specific approach to DECISION-MAKING.

Have you even read any of Savory's articles on HMG?


Good point. 

Bunch. Move. Rest.

is NOT sufficient.

It's just an easy way to state the most important principles.

But as you rightly observe, you would not achieve optimum results if you, for example, didn't bunch tightly enough for your particular situation ... or moved to quickly or too slowly for your particular situation ... or you overrested or underrested the paddocks after moving, and so on.

Yes, of course I've read Savory.  His books were our textbooks in class.
6
Probably should explain to Pingy once again what HMG ranching actually is ...

To be an HMG rancher, one must ...

Say it with me ... altogether now ...

BUNCH. MOVE. REST.

Am I doing that with my animals?  Why yes I am!!

Does that make me an HMG rancher?  Why yes it does!!

See how that works?
Nope.
"Necessary but not sufficient"
See how THAT works?

You could "BUNCH. MOVE. REST" with a half-dozen  slugs.
Would that make you an "HMG rancher" ?
In theory, yes.  But why?  Do you want to raise slugs to eat?

You are an idiot.
7
By the way ... we had an ice storm this week which covered all my grass with ice ... did my animals go hungry?  Why no! They didn't.  You could tell that they didn't like it much ... but - like school boys dutifully eating their spinach because their mother makes them - they ate it.

Right.

And what would they have done "in the wild", Dave? 


In the wild, they would have done exactly what my animals did.  Eat it because it's the only thing available. 

But it wouldn't be "the only thing available" in the wild, would it?  They'd be free to find forage in a more sheltered spot, for instance.

I'm mimicking Nature, remember?
Quote
Or even on a half-way decent farm?
By this, I assume you mean a farm like one of my neighbors who I drive by every day who have too many animals crowded onto a totally overgrazed paddock covered in poop and the animals are crowded around a hay rack eating nasty dry hay.

In my opinion, that's not "halfway decent" at all.

No, I didn't mean that, and it's not what I said. Obviously I don't mean your neighbours because I have no idea what your neighbours do.  I mean any humane farmer who provides a shelter for her animals, and non-frozen forage when the ground is frozen.  You don't need to overgraze your pasture in order to provide hay or turnips.  And your adjective "nasty" could just as well apply to your icy grass that you fully admit they didn't like much.

Well, last week my neighbour's sheep clearly preferred the pile of "nasty dry" hay and turnips their farmer had thoughtfully provided to the frozen and waterlogged but NOT overgrazed pasture that was the alternative.


Animals in the wild in my area would not have had much choice this week but to eat icy forage.  The area blanketed by ice was quite extensive ... hundreds of miles.

Farmers in my area do not provide shelter for their animals - cows and horses and sheep at least which is what I see driving around close to my place.  I also don't know of any that provide turnips.  The ones around here provide hay ... and I've had experience with the hay around here.  It varies greatly in quality ... the average is not very nice and my animals have always preferred grass in the ground even if it's largely brown.  Now it's true they might prefer average dry hay over my icy grass ... but keep in mind that icy grass is very rare so my animals are usually getting very yummy food while my neighbors animals are getting very average food all winter long.
8
Probably should explain to Pingy once again what HMG ranching actually is ...

To be an HMG rancher, one must ...

Say it with me ... altogether now ...

BUNCH. MOVE. REST.

Am I doing that with my animals?  Why yes I am!!

Does that make me an HMG rancher?  Why yes it does!!

See how that works?
Why, no, no it doesn't. It makes you a pathetic wanna be.
See how that works?
Lol

OK, Sea Star ... you believe whatever you want to believe
9
We HMG ranchers do practice the scientific method ... but we are more efficient at it than you octohatter types ... so you guys are way behind slogging in the mud trying to catch up with us and due to your brainwashing, you think you are out in front of us.  Lol
I AM NOT AN OCTOHATTER!
I'm still way ahead of you though.
These are my mob-grazing neighbors!
http://nrcs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=c49d653f05ac46098d6ff8bbf6215cbf
Awesome. Looks like the real deal!
Quote

Pete gestures in a big circle beneath our feet.

"All of this is orchard and rye grass, and there's plantain and chicory. That yellow flower back there is turnip."

As he names each plant, he plucks a specimen and occasionally samples one.

Looks like he's another HMG practitioner full of useless knowledge about what is growing on his land.
Not useless.  There's hobby value.
Um no. The Wahls don't do hobbies. They're 110% business. It's certainly more than light pleasant exercise for them!
Nice preaching.  But you really don't know whether all this plant analysis is vital to their business or not.  You have just assumed that it is.  I happen to believe it's NOT vital based on my extensive exposure to people like Ian Mitchell-Innes, Greg Judy and Joe Hopping.
Lol, how is this preaching?
Because you've given me no evidence that you understand WHY they do this plant analysis.  You are just declaring that it's not a hobby, i.e. it's vital to their business.  But you have not established that.
Quote
Also, you happen to believe some really stupid thing that are easily refuted.
Such as?
Quote
Also, how do you define 'extensive exposure'? your 6 month internship?
10+ years reading their writings ... 2 paid intensive classes at Greg's ... a 6 month full time, full immersion internship at Greg's.
10
Probably should explain to Pingy once again what HMG ranching actually is ...

To be an HMG rancher, one must ...

Say it with me ... altogether now ...

BUNCH. MOVE. REST.

Am I doing that with my animals?  Why yes I am!!

Does that make me an HMG rancher?  Why yes it does!!

See how that works?
11
We HMG ranchers do practice the scientific method ... but we are more efficient at it than you octohatter types ... so you guys are way behind slogging in the mud trying to catch up with us and due to your brainwashing, you think you are out in front of us.  Lol
You aren't an HMG rancher. 
I see.  Okey dokey.

Lol
12
By the way ... we had an ice storm this week which covered all my grass with ice ... did my animals go hungry?  Why no! They didn't.  You could tell that they didn't like it much ... but - like school boys dutifully eating their spinach because their mother makes them - they ate it.

Right.

And what would they have done "in the wild", Dave? 
In the wild, they would have done exactly what my animals did.  Eat it because it's the only thing available.  I'm mimicking Nature, remember? 
Quote
Or even on a half-way decent farm?
By this, I assume you mean a farm like one of my neighbors who I drive by every day who have too many animals crowded onto a totally overgrazed paddock covered in poop and the animals are crowded around a hay rack eating nasty dry hay.

In my opinion, that's not "halfway decent" at all.
13
Nice preaching.  But you really don't know whether all this plant analysis is vital to their business or not.  You have just assumed that it is.  I happen to believe it's NOT vital based on my extensive exposure to people like Ian Mitchell-Innes, Greg Judy and Joe Hopping.

The way I read the link contents, they certainly explain why it's vital to know their plants, and how they evaluate the success from the increased health of their flock.
Oh?  Could you quote the paragraphs that you think indicate this?  And how do you know that "increased health" is affected by this plant micromanagement activity?  How do you know that "increased health" is just due to the daily moves alone?
14
By the way ... we had an ice storm this week which covered all my grass with ice ... did my animals go hungry?  Why no! They didn't.  You could tell that they didn't like it much ... but - like school boys dutifully eating their spinach because their mother makes them - they ate it.
15
600 years ago in North America was anyone doing forage analysis for the buffalo?  Planting specific varieties for them to eat? 

Answer is "No"

Did the buffalo suffer for it?

I doubt it.
16
These are my mob-grazing neighbors!
http://nrcs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=c49d653f05ac46098d6ff8bbf6215cbf
Awesome. Looks like the real deal!
Quote

Pete gestures in a big circle beneath our feet.

"All of this is orchard and rye grass, and there's plantain and chicory. That yellow flower back there is turnip."

As he names each plant, he plucks a specimen and occasionally samples one.

Looks like he's another HMG practitioner full of useless knowledge about what is growing on his land.
Not useless.  There's hobby value.
Um no. The Wahls don't do hobbies. They're 110% business. It's certainly more than light pleasant exercise for them!
Nice preaching.  But you really don't know whether all this plant analysis is vital to their business or not.  You have just assumed that it is.  I happen to believe it's NOT vital based on my extensive exposure to people like Ian Mitchell-Innes, Greg Judy and Joe Hopping.
17
We HMG ranchers do practice the scientific method ... but we are more efficient at it than you octohatter types ... so you guys are way behind slogging in the mud trying to catch up with us and due to your brainwashing, you think you are out in front of us.  Lol
18
Lol

:facepalm:

You say all these things because of your massive brainwashing by conventional animal husbandry people.

I remember sitting through Greg Judy's classes and he was telling about when he first began to implement the principles of HMG. Like your neighbor with the Sheep, he jumped in and started having success thanks to the guidance of Ian mitchell-innes. Ian lived in South Africa and would visit Greg once or twice a year to Mentor him.  Every time Ian would visit, he would ask Greg why are you doing ________?  Greg said at first it kind of ticked him off, but then he never could come up with a good answer as to why he was doing that particular thing ( like hoof trimming ) and over time he began to realize just how much he had been conditioned by conventional animal husbandry people.
Preaching. That's all.
I'll ask Petey why they trim all the hooves, next time I see him.
good idea. Then call Greg Judy or Joe hopping and ask them why they do NOT trim hooves. Then you will have ALL the data not just some of it which supports your preferred narrative.

See?  The answer to the question "why don't you trim your sheeps hooves?"  is NOT "ALL the data not just some of it". 

An EXPLANATION is not DATA.  It is a THEORY that someone puts forward to ACCOUNT for their data.


You're mistaken that I don't know the difference ... what you don't realize is that I just move faster than you do. 

I'll back up and slow down a bit so you can follow ...

I told Sea Star to call her sheep friend to ask about hoof trimming.  When she speaks to them, she will receive both data and analysis - namely "Petey's" analysis of his data.  I also told her to call Greg or Joe.  If she does, she will receive different data and different analyses of that different data. 

At that point, she will be better positioned to try to form an opinion about hoof trimming.
19
Brainwashing can be done by anyone, for example, by a lone voice in the wilderness like Greg Judy... But usually brainwashing comes from large powerful groups.  And of course the acid test of whether you are being brainwashed or not is...

Drum roll

EVIDENCE

 And I'm not convinced that you people know what that is.
20
Lol

:facepalm:

You say all these things because of your massive brainwashing by conventional animal husbandry people.

I remember sitting through Greg Judy's classes and he was telling about when he first began to implement the principles of HMG. Like your neighbor with the Sheep, he jumped in and started having success thanks to the guidance of Ian mitchell-innes. Ian lived in South Africa and would visit Greg once or twice a year to Mentor him.  Every time Ian would visit, he would ask Greg why are you doing ________?  Greg said at first it kind of ticked him off, but then he never could come up with a good answer as to why he was doing that particular thing ( like hoof trimming ) and over time he began to realize just how much he had been conditioned by conventional animal husbandry people.
Preaching. That's all.
I'll ask Petey why they trim all the hooves, next time I see him.
good idea. Then call Greg Judy or Joe hopping and ask them why they do NOT trim hooves. Then you will have ALL the data not just some of it which supports your preferred narrative.
21
You are not interested in the truth about animal husbandry. You have your preferred narrative and no array of facts will change that.
22
Lol

:facepalm:

You say all these things because of your massive brainwashing by conventional animal husbandry people.

I remember sitting through Greg Judy's classes and he was telling about when he first began to implement the principles of HMG. Like your neighbor with the Sheep, he jumped in and started having success thanks to the guidance of Ian mitchell-innes. Ian lived in South Africa and would visit Greg once or twice a year to Mentor him.  Every time Ian would visit, he would ask Greg why are you doing ________?  Greg said at first it kind of ticked him off, but then he never could come up with a good answer as to why he was doing that particular thing ( like hoof trimming ) and over time he began to realize just how much he had been conditioned by conventional animal husbandry people.
23
I'm familiar with that issue and I started out trimming my goats hooves when I first got them, then it dawned on me that no one trims hooves in the wild and I think the main reason it's not a problem in the wild is because the animals are on the move constantly ... they are never walking in shit.  My animals also are never walking in their own shit and almost never in mud either  because my grass is so tall and thick.  I've check my goats hooves over the past two years and they trim naturally and are never gross.  Neat, huh?
Dave your animals are kept in a cage
Yes, a moving cage.  That's why they don't step in their own shit.
24
These are my mob-grazing neighbors!
http://nrcs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=c49d653f05ac46098d6ff8bbf6215cbf
Awesome. Looks like the real deal!
Quote

Pete gestures in a big circle beneath our feet.

"All of this is orchard and rye grass, and there's plantain and chicory. That yellow flower back there is turnip."

As he names each plant, he plucks a specimen and occasionally samples one.

Looks like he's another HMG practitioner full of useless knowledge about what is growing on his land.
Not useless.  There's hobby value.
25
I first learned about "no hoof trimming" for sheep from Greg Judy who learned the sheep business primarily from Joe Hopping.