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Messages - Dave Hawkins

1
These are my mob-grazing neighbors!
http://nrcs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=c49d653f05ac46098d6ff8bbf6215cbf
Awesome. Looks like the real deal!
Quote

Pete gestures in a big circle beneath our feet.

"All of this is orchard and rye grass, and there's plantain and chicory. That yellow flower back there is turnip."

As he names each plant, he plucks a specimen and occasionally samples one.

Looks like he's another HMG practitioner full of useless knowledge about what is growing on his land.
Not useless.  There's hobby value.
2
I first learned about "no hoof trimming" for sheep from Greg Judy who learned the sheep business primarily from Joe Hopping.
3
I'm familiar with that issue and I started out trimming my goats hooves when I first got them, then it dawned on me that no one trims hooves in the wild and I think the main reason it's not a problem in the wild is because the animals are on the move constantly ... they are never walking in shit.  My animals also are never walking in their own shit and almost never in mud either  because my grass is so tall and thick.  I've check my goats hooves over the past two years and they trim naturally and are never gross.  Neat, huh?
5
These are my mob-grazing neighbors!
http://nrcs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=c49d653f05ac46098d6ff8bbf6215cbf
Awesome. Looks like the real deal!
Yup! Apparently, they routinely trim all 4 hooves of all their hair sheep.
Did you note Pete say they plant their pastures, and he named a bunch of grasses?
They make their own compost and apply it to the pastures as well.
Pretty sure Joe Hopping does not trim hooves or plant any grasses.  Applying compost is a great way to speed everything up.
It's just that you mentioned hair sheep being maintenance-free.
Mine are.
6
These are my mob-grazing neighbors!
http://nrcs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=c49d653f05ac46098d6ff8bbf6215cbf
Awesome. Looks like the real deal!
Yup! Apparently, they routinely trim all 4 hooves of all their hair sheep.
Did you note Pete say they plant their pastures, and he named a bunch of grasses?
They make their own compost and apply it to the pastures as well.
Pretty sure Joe Hopping does not trim hooves or plant any grasses.  Applying compost is a great way to speed everything up.
8
This is the guy - Ian Mitchell-Innes - who taught HMG to Greg Judy who in turn taught it to me ... Ian learned it from Allan Savory.
It's like a goddamned apostolic succession!  :awgee:
Yeah kinda

Lol
9
What I want is for Pingu to pick the kinds of foods she would like to have on her island and try to get some real world data about man hours vs. food calorie output for those selected foods.  Then I want her to incorporate these rough-but-believable numbers into some rough meal plans for say 5 people for 5 years and calculate how much of each person's week is going to be spent on food production.
10
I've had a clue for a very long time ... I'm waiting for you to catch up.
11
This is the guy - Ian Mitchell-Innes - who taught HMG to Greg Judy who in turn taught it to me ... Ian learned it from Allan Savory.

https://www.grainews.ca/2017/04/10/the-profit-potential-of-selective-grazing-2/
12
Hogwash. We have plenty of information with which we could make informed decisions.

I really do want to create a simulation sometime. That would be freaking awesome.
It would get bogged down in discussions about what it is even supposed to simulate and that it's not doing that.
I cannot see this going anywhere but nowhere.
Nah. Wouldn't be that hard.  The goal would be to test the "Pingu Food Production System" vs. the "Dave Food Production Systrm" ... mainly how many annual food calories could be produced vs. Number of man hours to produce it.

You just aren't getting this "depends on what the island is" thing, are you?

And there is no "island" that is "like Missouri" because Missouri, when I last looked was in the middle of a fucking great continent.
Dave only chose islands to make sure "we" couldn't leave. So pretend he said we were walled into a small area of Missouri.

Doesn't change the "it depends" part, but the "no island like" should be relatively irrelevant.

My point was the larger one, that the very idea that we should have assumed that when he said "an island" he meant "something like Missouri" because of course he did, is symptomatic of his ignorance and dismissal of really important differences between climates and biome.

Of course when he said "an island" we didn't think "like Missouri". Anyone with half an ounce of ecological sense would immediately ask "how large?  what latititude? what longitude?"  The whole reason his thought experiment is so absurd is that the answers depends on what, in another context, he would call DETAILS.

So if he means an area of Missouri with a barbed wired fence and security guards around it, then he should say so.  And he should also say whether, for example, it includes a river.

Again DETAILS. 

The world is a WHOLE, which is why it is so utterly ludicrous to be discussing what he calls "holistic" solutions to a tiny unspecified part.

Yeah. I just find some parts of Dave's stupidity...easy to translate. His choice to use island rather than jail was because the standard fantasy of forced isolation is an island; he didn't think it through the details. As such, I personally don't find rehashing his inability to put together a cohesive world from extremely common tropes that interesting. More interesting to me is understanding why - even in a case as close to matching what he actually wants - he thinks this thought experiment will prove anything.
I think it will demonstrate the superiority of an animal foods based system. But if I'm wrong ... Ok. I'm wrong several times a day. It's part of science.

You would do THAT by running an ACTUAL experiment and recording DATA.
Of course. And I have already done that with dairy goats. And Walter Haguen has already done it for his style of vegetable gardening.

You aren't concentrating, Dave.

We WERE talking about what your "thought experiment" would achieve, remember?
I don't need to concentrate. This is so easy I can do this with half my brain tied behind my back as Rush Limbaugh likes to say.

You couldn't even concentrate hard enough to remember the question ffs.

We simply have to agree on certain parameters for example how many man hours it takes to grow a certain size potato crop and how many food calories of output you get. And how many man hours it takes to raise meat animals and dairy animals versus how many food calories are output and so on.

Well, I reject your premise.

You are, as I said, failing to understand the difference between model and data.

Sure you can calculate those things given some a priori parameters.  That is your MODEL.  You can then TEST that model against DATA.

The data may show that your model was really good.  They may also show that your parameters were wildly off.
You are such a master at dispensing squid ink.

Look I know that you cannot have real data in a thought experiment. Do you think I was born yesterday?

All I want you to do is agree with me on certain model parameters with respect to various types of food production, both plant foods and animal Foods. In other words I want you to pick 3 or 5 or 10 types of foods that you want to produce on your Island in  thought experiment. I will also pick 3 or 5 or 10 types of foods and we will agree on the parameters for All Foods produced. Then we will run some numbers based on these model parameters and see what comes out.

Agreed?
13
Hogwash. We have plenty of information with which we could make informed decisions.

I really do want to create a simulation sometime. That would be freaking awesome.
It would get bogged down in discussions about what it is even supposed to simulate and that it's not doing that.
I cannot see this going anywhere but nowhere.
Nah. Wouldn't be that hard.  The goal would be to test the "Pingu Food Production System" vs. the "Dave Food Production Systrm" ... mainly how many annual food calories could be produced vs. Number of man hours to produce it.

You just aren't getting this "depends on what the island is" thing, are you?

And there is no "island" that is "like Missouri" because Missouri, when I last looked was in the middle of a fucking great continent.
Dave only chose islands to make sure "we" couldn't leave. So pretend he said we were walled into a small area of Missouri.

Doesn't change the "it depends" part, but the "no island like" should be relatively irrelevant.

My point was the larger one, that the very idea that we should have assumed that when he said "an island" he meant "something like Missouri" because of course he did, is symptomatic of his ignorance and dismissal of really important differences between climates and biome.

Of course when he said "an island" we didn't think "like Missouri". Anyone with half an ounce of ecological sense would immediately ask "how large?  what latititude? what longitude?"  The whole reason his thought experiment is so absurd is that the answers depends on what, in another context, he would call DETAILS.

So if he means an area of Missouri with a barbed wired fence and security guards around it, then he should say so.  And he should also say whether, for example, it includes a river.

Again DETAILS. 

The world is a WHOLE, which is why it is so utterly ludicrous to be discussing what he calls "holistic" solutions to a tiny unspecified part.

Yeah. I just find some parts of Dave's stupidity...easy to translate. His choice to use island rather than jail was because the standard fantasy of forced isolation is an island; he didn't think it through the details. As such, I personally don't find rehashing his inability to put together a cohesive world from extremely common tropes that interesting. More interesting to me is understanding why - even in a case as close to matching what he actually wants - he thinks this thought experiment will prove anything.
I think it will demonstrate the superiority of an animal foods based system. But if I'm wrong ... Ok. I'm wrong several times a day. It's part of science.

You would do THAT by running an ACTUAL experiment and recording DATA.
Of course. And I have already done that with dairy goats. And Walter Haguen has already done it for his style of vegetable gardening.

You aren't concentrating, Dave.

We WERE talking about what your "thought experiment" would achieve, remember?
I don't need to concentrate. This is so easy I can do this with half my brain tied behind my back as Rush Limbaugh likes to say.

We simply have to agree on certain parameters for example how many man hours it takes to grow a certain size potato crop and how many food calories of output you get. And how many man hours it takes to raise meat animals and dairy animals versus how many food calories are output and so on.
14
Hogwash. We have plenty of information with which we could make informed decisions.

I really do want to create a simulation sometime. That would be freaking awesome.
It would get bogged down in discussions about what it is even supposed to simulate and that it's not doing that.
I cannot see this going anywhere but nowhere.
Nah. Wouldn't be that hard.  The goal would be to test the "Pingu Food Production System" vs. the "Dave Food Production Systrm" ... mainly how many annual food calories could be produced vs. Number of man hours to produce it.

You just aren't getting this "depends on what the island is" thing, are you?

And there is no "island" that is "like Missouri" because Missouri, when I last looked was in the middle of a fucking great continent.
Dave only chose islands to make sure "we" couldn't leave. So pretend he said we were walled into a small area of Missouri.

Doesn't change the "it depends" part, but the "no island like" should be relatively irrelevant.

My point was the larger one, that the very idea that we should have assumed that when he said "an island" he meant "something like Missouri" because of course he did, is symptomatic of his ignorance and dismissal of really important differences between climates and biome.

Of course when he said "an island" we didn't think "like Missouri". Anyone with half an ounce of ecological sense would immediately ask "how large?  what latititude? what longitude?"  The whole reason his thought experiment is so absurd is that the answers depends on what, in another context, he would call DETAILS.

So if he means an area of Missouri with a barbed wired fence and security guards around it, then he should say so.  And he should also say whether, for example, it includes a river.

Again DETAILS. 

The world is a WHOLE, which is why it is so utterly ludicrous to be discussing what he calls "holistic" solutions to a tiny unspecified part.

Yeah. I just find some parts of Dave's stupidity...easy to translate. His choice to use island rather than jail was because the standard fantasy of forced isolation is an island; he didn't think it through the details. As such, I personally don't find rehashing his inability to put together a cohesive world from extremely common tropes that interesting. More interesting to me is understanding why - even in a case as close to matching what he actually wants - he thinks this thought experiment will prove anything.
I think it will demonstrate the superiority of an animal foods based system. But if I'm wrong ... Ok. I'm wrong several times a day. It's part of science.

You would do THAT by running an ACTUAL experiment and recording DATA.
Of course. And I have already done that with dairy goats. And Walter Haguen has already done it for his style of vegetable gardening.
15
Hogwash. We have plenty of information with which we could make informed decisions.

I really do want to create a simulation sometime. That would be freaking awesome.
It would get bogged down in discussions about what it is even supposed to simulate and that it's not doing that.
I cannot see this going anywhere but nowhere.
Nah. Wouldn't be that hard.  The goal would be to test the "Pingu Food Production System" vs. the "Dave Food Production Systrm" ... mainly how many annual food calories could be produced vs. Number of man hours to produce it.

You just aren't getting this "depends on what the island is" thing, are you?

And there is no "island" that is "like Missouri" because Missouri, when I last looked was in the middle of a fucking great continent.
Dave only chose islands to make sure "we" couldn't leave. So pretend he said we were walled into a small area of Missouri.

Doesn't change the "it depends" part, but the "no island like" should be relatively irrelevant.

My point was the larger one, that the very idea that we should have assumed that when he said "an island" he meant "something like Missouri" because of course he did, is symptomatic of his ignorance and dismissal of really important differences between climates and biome.

Of course when he said "an island" we didn't think "like Missouri". Anyone with half an ounce of ecological sense would immediately ask "how large?  what latititude? what longitude?"  The whole reason his thought experiment is so absurd is that the answers depends on what, in another context, he would call DETAILS.

So if he means an area of Missouri with a barbed wired fence and security guards around it, then he should say so.  And he should also say whether, for example, it includes a river.

Again DETAILS. 

The world is a WHOLE, which is why it is so utterly ludicrous to be discussing what he calls "holistic" solutions to a tiny unspecified part.

Yeah. I just find some parts of Dave's stupidity...easy to translate. His choice to use island rather than jail was because the standard fantasy of forced isolation is an island; he didn't think it through the details. As such, I personally don't find rehashing his inability to put together a cohesive world from extremely common tropes that interesting. More interesting to me is understanding why - even in a case as close to matching what he actually wants - he thinks this thought experiment will prove anything.
I think it will demonstrate the superiority of an animal foods based system. But if I'm wrong ... Ok. I'm wrong several times a day. It's part of science.
16
No uncool... the assumptions have to be grounded in reality.

Can't invoke magic.

Why on earth not?  You do.
Not in the area of food production I don't.

Why the exception?
There has never been an exception to the rule that Dave Hawkins cannot invoke Magic. I'm not like Benny Hinn.
17
No uncool... the assumptions have to be grounded in reality.

Can't invoke magic.
An island just like Missouri is magic.
Okay if the concept of an island just like Missouri makes your head explode too much then just imagine a wall like the Great Wall of China around two pieces of land in Missouri close to my location.  The point is that Donald Trump has exiled you to these pieces of land for 5 years and you cannot have any contact with the outside world at all during those 5 years.
18
No uncool... the assumptions have to be grounded in reality.

Can't invoke magic.

Why on earth not?  You do.
Not in the area of food production I don't.
20
No uncool... the assumptions have to be grounded in reality.

Can't invoke magic.
21
Start with "same rainfall, same soil types, same temp ranges and same flora and fauna as Missouri."
22
Make some assumptions. You're good at that!

(EDIT: except these assumptions will have a basis in reality... as opposed yo most of yours)
23
Hogwash. We have plenty of information with which we could make informed decisions.

I really do want to create a simulation sometime. That would be freaking awesome.
It would get bogged down in discussions about what it is even supposed to simulate and that it's not doing that.
I cannot see this going anywhere but nowhere.
Nah. Wouldn't be that hard.  The goal would be to test the "Pingu Food Production System" vs. the "Dave Food Production Systrm" ... mainly how many annual food calories could be produced vs. Number of man hours to produce it.

You just aren't getting this "depends on what the island is" thing, are you?

And there is no "island" that is "like Missouri" because Missouri, when I last looked was in the middle of a fucking great continent.
Use your imagination. You can do it!!
24
Hogwash. We have plenty of information with which we could make informed decisions.

I really do want to create a simulation sometime. That would be freaking awesome.
It would get bogged down in discussions about what it is even supposed to simulate and that it's not doing that.
I cannot see this going anywhere but nowhere.
Nah. Wouldn't be that hard.  The goal would be to test the "Pingu Food Production System" vs. the "Dave Food Production Systrm" ... mainly how many annual food calories could be produced vs. Number of man hours to produce it.
25
Hogwash. We have plenty of information with which we could make informed decisions.

I really do want to create a simulation sometime. That would be freaking awesome.