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Topic: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group (Read 6663 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • Martin.au
  • Thingyologist
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #25
Well, goldfish brain seems to have forgotten this thread, where numerous people explained how sedimentary layers form. Those explanations Dave completely ignored, before badgering off again.
http://talkrational.org/index.php/topic,744.msg50632.html#msg50632
"That which can be asserted with evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." (Dave Hawkins)

  • osmanthus
  • Administrator
  • Fingerer of piglets
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #26
Did he get nudged about metamorphic rocks in that one? I can see great scope for merriment with metamorphic rocks,
Truth is out of style

  • Martin.au
  • Thingyologist
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #27
Don't think so. Didn't even get that far.
"That which can be asserted with evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." (Dave Hawkins)

  • osmanthus
  • Administrator
  • Fingerer of piglets
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #28
Snelling on the Geology of Israel ...
Quote
In southern Israel the flat-lying sedimentary strata (sandstone, limestone and shale) stacked above the unconformity representing the beginning of the Flood are about 1.6 km (1 mi.) thick, similar to the strata sequence exposed in the Grand Canyon (Austin 1994; Beus and Morales 2003). https://answersingenesis.org/geology/geology-of-israel-in-biblical-framework-2-flood-rocks/
Sweet.  Just as I predicted.
Ok, just for shitz and giggles I took a look at that page.

Quote
Snelling (2010a) identified and discussed the pre-Flood rocks of Israel, found only in the Elat area in the far south of the country. The unconformity across the top of the Precambrian igneous and metamorphic basement rocks was suggested as marking the onset of the Flood, which also included the rapid deposition of coarse clastic sediments (arkose and arkosic conglomerate) accompanied by volcanics (basalt flows, some erupted under water, and explosively erupted tuffs and other pryoclastics) (Garfunkel 1980), consistent with the breaking up of the pre-Flood crust as waters of the fountains of the great deep erupted.
Those are easy to find in the map and key on that page.

The first pre-Cambrian deposit listed is the Elat/Roded Conglomerate. Oh dear, that's a sedimentary rock.
The next one is the Timna Granite and several other "granites", but the key says those include several different types of sedimentary rock too.
Third one is the Elat Granite, and a few other "granites", but the key says those include several different types of sedimentary rock too.
Fourth one is Syenite, Monzonite, etc which are also chock full of sedimentary rocks.
Fifth one is Gabbro, diorite and other basic rocks, also with a lot of sedimentary bits.
Sixth one is the Roded Quartz-Diorite. No prizes for guessing what's in there (hint: not just quartz and diorite).
Seventh son of a seventh son is Amphibolite, which is also sedimentary.
#8 is Granitic Gneiss, also sedimentary.

and you can go all the way to the bottom of the key to find Abu Barqa Metasediments Buseinat Gneiss, which is sedimentary in origin too. As are all the other deposits listed between that and #8 Granitic Gneiss.

So, the upshot of this is that all of the pre-Cambrian basement rocks in southern Israel are either of sedimentary origin, or at the least contain significant amounts of sedimentary rock.

Which means they are, to coin a phrase, "rock laid down by water all over southern Israel". Yet somehow they are not laid down by Teh FluddeTM.

We ask, why is it so? :parrot:
Truth is out of style

  • Martin.au
  • Thingyologist
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #29
Cue 'Last Thursdayism'!
"That which can be asserted with evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." (Dave Hawkins)

  • osmanthus
  • Administrator
  • Fingerer of piglets
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #30
Hey this is fun. Back to the Grand Canyon for a minute, and the good bit is the rocks that are underneath the Vishnu.

The Vishnu schist is the top layer in the complex, and is sedimentary in origin, then underneath that are the Rama and Brahma schists, but those are igneous in origin. The oldest rocks, exposed down the bottom, are the Elves Chasm pluton. Volcanic, obviously, but the interface between it and the schists on top is...

Quote
...characterized by a high-grade orthoamphibole-bearing gneiss. This gneiss is interpreted to be a highly metamorphosed and sheared paleosol and associated regolith that originally consisted of several meters of weathered rock debris eroded from older plutonic rocks.
So, underneath the lower, igneous, pre-Flood Rama and Brahma basement layers is a layer that is sedimentary in origin. Which means that if the sedimentary Vishnu is pre-Fludde then obviously there was extensive volcanism in the area before the Fludde, to form the lower Rama and Brahma layers, and before the volcanism there was soil and significant erosion of exposed rock.

So how many volcanoes were there in the pre-Flood paradise? Because there obviously had to be some.
Truth is out of style

  • Faid
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #31
Is it 2006 again?

Should we inform dave of angular uncomformities?
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • osmanthus
  • Administrator
  • Fingerer of piglets
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #32
I think he realises there's one at the top of the Vishnu complex. I'm not sure he realises there is a lot of sedimentary rock in his "pre-Flood" layers, and also a lot of volcanic rock. I'm not sure any YEC has ever talked about this. They just seem to assume that they can draw a convenient line and say "pre-Flood" without thinking about what's under that line.
Truth is out of style

  • Martin.au
  • Thingyologist
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #33
I must find out what the YECs do with Ediacaran fossils at some stage.
"That which can be asserted with evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." (Dave Hawkins)

  • osmanthus
  • Administrator
  • Fingerer of piglets
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #34
Obviously they'd be fossilised pre-Flood critters. Must have been made on the fifth day, because he had to do all the trees first.
Truth is out of style

  • Fenrir
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #35
Obviously they'd be fossilised pre-Flood critters. Must have been made on the fifth day, because he had to do all the trees first.


Oooh that's mean!

 :grin:
It's what plants crave.

  • Pingu
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #36
And then there's this:

I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #37
Did he get nudged about metamorphic rocks in that one? I can see great scope for merriment with metamorphic rocks,
Metamorphic Merriment would be a good band name.
Are we there yet?

  • Pingu
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #38
One yeccie line goes something like "the rocks must have been wet when they were folded, because dry rock would crack"
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #39
And completely ignoring the fact that fracturing can occur at microscopic scales. I've been trying to get Pahu to understand this, but he's stopped responding and has rebooted into his usual Wally regurgitation cycle.
Why do I bother?

  • osmanthus
  • Administrator
  • Fingerer of piglets
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #40
Speaking of which, there was a show on the tv recently about Chicxulub. The granite chunks in the core from the peak ring were so shocked that they could be crumbled between two fingers. They looked like granite, but were as fragile as soft chalk.
Truth is out of style

  • osmanthus
  • Administrator
  • Fingerer of piglets
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #41
Oh yeah, if anyone is curious: this came out the other day, and is about that same expedition that got the cores. It's open access.

Chicxulub and the Exploration of Large Peak-Ring Impact Craters through Scientific Drilling

Quote from: Abstract
The Chicxulub crater is the only well-preserved peak-ring crater on Earth and linked, famously, to the K-T or K-Pg mass extinction event. For the first time, geologists have drilled into the peak ring of that crater in the International Ocean Discovery Program and International Continental Scientific Drilling Program (IODP-ICDP) Expedition 364. The Chicxulub impact event, the environmental calamity it produced, and the paleobiological consequences are among the most captivating topics being discussed in the geologic community. Here we focus attention on the geological processes that shaped the ~200-km-wide impact crater responsible for that discussion and the expedition's first year results.

Truth is out of style

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #42
And completely ignoring the fact that fracturing can occur at microscopic scales. I've been trying to get Pahu to understand this, but he's stopped responding and has rebooted into his usual Wally regurgitation cycle.
As well as that at high temperatures or high pressures, or more likely both when located at depths of a couple of kilometers, rock becomes plastic, quite plastic. It easily deforms permanently under the sort of forces involved. Forces that can move continents and lift massive mountain ranges. The clinching factor is the time involved. Small deformations over a long time can result in extreme bending without cracking, it's called "creep". Concrete does it, so does wood.
Are we there yet?

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #43
I'm gonna play with this a bit. Out of all the arse kickings that have been delivered to YEC over the years, I don't recall the Vishnu and other metamorphic basement rocks being used to bugger up the Fludde story. It may have been done, because it's bloody obvious now that I've thought of it, but I've never seen Dave address it (even badgeringly).
Do you have any idea of the number of times Hawkins has had his nose rubbed in angular unconformities, and utterly, completely, blandly, obtusely, pretended never to have even seen those posts?
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #44
Testy has a wonderful explanation up his sleeve for how the layers which include the Tonto Group formed.  Bill Hoesch has a neat little article explaining the horizontal extent of these layers here ... http://www.icr.org/article/3342/ ... in which he observes the following ...
Quote
Tonto Group equivalents, that are also amazingly similar, are found across much of North America and are reported also across wide portions of Canada, Eastern Greenland, Scotland, and South Australia. Such persistence of strata is enough to baffle creationist and evolutionist alike. Picture a sheet of copy paper 0.1 millimeters thick that measures 1 kilometer by 0.6 kilometer, then stack three on top of one another. You then have a picture of how thin these three layers are across the breadth of North America.

A sufficient process is needed to explain such persistence. The Genesis Flood is sufficient.

Go, Testy, go!

:popcorn:

Walther's Law.

Testy is MIA.  So we'll pick Martin.  "Walther's Law. Sedimentary environments that started out side-by-side will end up overlapping one another over time due to transgressions and regressions. The result is a vertical sequence of beds. The vertical sequence of facies mirrors the original lateral distribution of sedimentary environments."

Wonderful.  Do go on please.

The challenge for you, my friend, is to show me ONE - just ONE - place anywhere in the world where this process is occurring today ... which, if continued for millions of years, would result in a layer that flat, that large, and that thin.

THAT, my friend, is your challenge.

I already know you cannot do it, which of course is why I'm asking.


Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #45
Just to emphasize how large, how flat and how thin this layer really is ...

Picture a sheet of copy paper 0.1 millimeters thick that measures 1 kilometer by 0.6 kilometer, then stack three on top of one another.

  • Pingu
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #46
Testy has a wonderful explanation up his sleeve for how the layers which include the Tonto Group formed.  Bill Hoesch has a neat little article explaining the horizontal extent of these layers here ... http://www.icr.org/article/3342/ ... in which he observes the following ...
Quote
Tonto Group equivalents, that are also amazingly similar, are found across much of North America and are reported also across wide portions of Canada, Eastern Greenland, Scotland, and South Australia. Such persistence of strata is enough to baffle creationist and evolutionist alike. Picture a sheet of copy paper 0.1 millimeters thick that measures 1 kilometer by 0.6 kilometer, then stack three on top of one another. You then have a picture of how thin these three layers are across the breadth of North America.

A sufficient process is needed to explain such persistence. The Genesis Flood is sufficient.

Go, Testy, go!

:popcorn:

Walther's Law.

Testy is MIA. 

Dave, YOU are the one who is MIA here.

What part of "if count-dates are wrong, the curves won't agree" don't you understand?
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • Martin.au
  • Thingyologist
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #47
Been to a beach, Dave?
"That which can be asserted with evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." (Dave Hawkins)

  • Pingu
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #48
Testy has a wonderful explanation up his sleeve for how the layers which include the Tonto Group formed.  Bill Hoesch has a neat little article explaining the horizontal extent of these layers here ... http://www.icr.org/article/3342/ ... in which he observes the following ...
Quote
Tonto Group equivalents, that are also amazingly similar, are found across much of North America and are reported also across wide portions of Canada, Eastern Greenland, Scotland, and South Australia. Such persistence of strata is enough to baffle creationist and evolutionist alike. Picture a sheet of copy paper 0.1 millimeters thick that measures 1 kilometer by 0.6 kilometer, then stack three on top of one another. You then have a picture of how thin these three layers are across the breadth of North America.

A sufficient process is needed to explain such persistence. The Genesis Flood is sufficient.

Go, Testy, go!

:popcorn:

Walther's Law.

Testy is MIA.  So we'll pick Martin.  "Walther's Law. Sedimentary environments that started out side-by-side will end up overlapping one another over time due to transgressions and regressions. The result is a vertical sequence of beds. The vertical sequence of facies mirrors the original lateral distribution of sedimentary environments."

Wonderful.  Do go on please.

The challenge for you, my friend, is to show me ONE - just ONE - place anywhere in the world where this process is occurring today ... which, if continued for millions of years, would result in a layer that flat, that large, and that thin.

THAT, my friend, is your challenge.

I already know you cannot do it, which of course is why I'm asking.

Anywhere where sediment enters the ocean, Dave.

They are called "sedimentary rocks" for a reason.  You know this. You are just mad because you realise you actually understood that if the curves agree, the count-dates must be right, and so YEC must be wrong.

And you really really don't want to face that realisation.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #49
Hawkins will never understand geology. Once a person with any intelligence at all has learned enough of the basic composition of the earth's crust, it becomes impossible to honestly hang onto 'Flood Geology' as a legitimate set of ideas. To continue holding to the notion of a young earth and a real global deluge, one has to avoid looking straight at the solid reality of rock. Only quick side glances allowed. Hawkins can't afford to understand.