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Topic: Goddamnit Al (Read 1196 times) previous topic - next topic

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Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #25
Not asking for their resignation would ALSO "play into the hands of Republicans" not least by giving them an excuse to tolerate Moore and Trump.

And forcing out Conyers but not Franken was a terrible look.

Took Dems a while to get to the summit of the moral high ground, but better late than never. 

Because optics apart, this isn't a prosecution so OF COURSE the default should be to believe the women, not least because the (correct) perception that you won't be believed is exactly why so few women actually break their silence.

The point is you ask for a serious investigation, state that you will stand by the findings of the investigation, and demand bipartisan buy-in to the investigatory system. Once that investigation is completed, you then ask for the resignation. It's not that fucking hard.

Jumping the gun may seem "cleaner" but alt-right operatives are already turning this into a tool to get rid of anyone they don't want. Mike Cernovich is fucking laughing all the way to the bank here.

Shitty sexual abusing white men control Congress and will shield each other from consequences as they have for centuries. Drum them out.

  • Pingu
Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #26
Not asking for their resignation would ALSO "play into the hands of Republicans" not least by giving them an excuse to tolerate Moore and Trump.

And forcing out Conyers but not Franken was a terrible look.

Took Dems a while to get to the summit of the moral high ground, but better late than never. 

Because optics apart, this isn't a prosecution so OF COURSE the default should be to believe the women, not least because the (correct) perception that you won't be believed is exactly why so few women actually break their silence.

The point is you ask for a serious investigation, state that you will stand by the findings of the investigation, and demand bipartisan buy-in to the investigatory system. Once that investigation is completed, you then ask for the resignation. It's not that fucking hard.

Jumping the gun may seem "cleaner" but alt-right operatives are already turning this into a tool to get rid of anyone they don't want. Mike Cernovich is fucking laughing all the way to the bank here.

And what would an "investigation" involve, in your view?
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • Pingu
Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #27
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • ravenscape
  • Administrator
  • Triggered
Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #28
Sigh.

And we have an admitted sexual assaulter in the white house and a pedophile running for the senate.

this fucking country.

  • Pingu
Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #29
I hoped he'd be Hillary's running mate :(
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #30
Not asking for their resignation would ALSO "play into the hands of Republicans" not least by giving them an excuse to tolerate Moore and Trump.

And forcing out Conyers but not Franken was a terrible look.

Took Dems a while to get to the summit of the moral high ground, but better late than never. 

Because optics apart, this isn't a prosecution so OF COURSE the default should be to believe the women, not least because the (correct) perception that you won't be believed is exactly why so few women actually break their silence.

The point is you ask for a serious investigation, state that you will stand by the findings of the investigation, and demand bipartisan buy-in to the investigatory system. Once that investigation is completed, you then ask for the resignation. It's not that fucking hard.

Jumping the gun may seem "cleaner" but alt-right operatives are already turning this into a tool to get rid of anyone they don't want. Mike Cernovich is fucking laughing all the way to the bank here.

And what would an "investigation" involve, in your view?

A series of hearings from the accusers, a hearing by the accused where any substantive evidence that the accusations were false or misrepresented could be introduced into the record, and if substantive evidence was not present, a binding decision that the accused legislator will resign.

Again, the issue here is not that the accusations are false because there's no evidence that they are. The issue is that this is being used in a partisan manner and the Democrats are playing along without forcing the Republicans to live by the same standards.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #31
I hoped he'd be Hillary's running mate :(
Me too.
I'm seriously bummed out.  :(
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • Pingu
Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #32
Not asking for their resignation would ALSO "play into the hands of Republicans" not least by giving them an excuse to tolerate Moore and Trump.

And forcing out Conyers but not Franken was a terrible look.

Took Dems a while to get to the summit of the moral high ground, but better late than never. 

Because optics apart, this isn't a prosecution so OF COURSE the default should be to believe the women, not least because the (correct) perception that you won't be believed is exactly why so few women actually break their silence.

The point is you ask for a serious investigation, state that you will stand by the findings of the investigation, and demand bipartisan buy-in to the investigatory system. Once that investigation is completed, you then ask for the resignation. It's not that fucking hard.

Jumping the gun may seem "cleaner" but alt-right operatives are already turning this into a tool to get rid of anyone they don't want. Mike Cernovich is fucking laughing all the way to the bank here.

And what would an "investigation" involve, in your view?

A series of hearings from the accusers, a hearing by the accused where any substantive evidence that the accusations were false or misrepresented could be introduced into the record, and if substantive evidence was not present, a binding decision that the accused legislator will resign.

wut?

Seriously, what kind of evidence would you consider grounds for Franken NOT resigning?

Again, the issue here is not that the accusations are false because there's no evidence that they are.

Exactly.

The issue is that this is being used in a partisan manner

Of course it is.
and the Democrats are playing along without forcing the Republicans to live by the same standards.

How do you suppose they do force the Republicans to live by the same standards?
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #33
There is no outcome with Al Franken that the Republicans will not use to justify supporting Moore.

  • Pingu
Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #34
So no reason for Franken not to do the right thing and resign.

I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #35
Well, for one, you set up a legal framework that oversees sexual harassment concerns in the legislature regardless of party.

In every other case of misconduct, we don't leave it up to the perpetrator's conscience as to whether the perpetrator will face repercussions for their actions. Why the hell are we so eager to make that the case here, where there is obviously a partisan effort to use sexual assault accusations as a tool to weaken an opposition party.

This is not that fucking hard.

  • Pingu
Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #36
Well, for one, you set up a legal framework that oversees sexual harassment concerns in the legislature regardless of party.

You aren't getting this, are you?

In every other case of misconduct, we don't leave it up to the perpetrator's conscience as to whether the perpetrator will face repercussions for their actions. Why the hell are we so eager to make that the case here, where there is obviously a partisan effort to use sexual assault accusations as a tool to weaken an opposition party.

Because inevitably, an investigation into sexual harassment will involve questioning the veracity of someone alleging sexual harassment. That is a huge problem. There are rarely any witnesses other than the two people, and while the complainant's words can be verified (e.g. by people who can give evidence that she complained at the time) they can't be easily falsified.  Up till now, the "solution" has been, essentially, to gaslight the woman.  Time the "solution" was to accept the guy's resignation.  It's not even as though Franken has denied any of this stuff.  He probably didn't even think of it as harassment.  That is the nature of the problem.

This is not that fucking hard.

So try harder.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #37
So no reason for Franken not to do the right thing and resign.



Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #38
Teeth gonna Teeth.

Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #39
Because inevitably, an investigation into sexual harassment will involve questioning the veracity of someone alleging sexual harassment. That is a huge problem. There are rarely any witnesses other than the two people, and while the complainant's words can be verified (e.g. by people who can give evidence that she complained at the time) they can't be easily falsified.  Up till now, the "solution" has been, essentially, to gaslight the woman.  Time the "solution" was to accept the guy's resignation.  It's not even as though Franken has denied any of this stuff.  He probably didn't even think of it as harassment.  That is the nature of the problem.

In criminal cases, there's a very good reason for that. But if you're looking at a workplace issue, the standard used depends on the standards set for the investigation process rather than the criminal "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" standards. If the concern is to avoid gaslighting and other crap, then set legal policies for these hearings that control what can and cannot be brought in as evidence. If you want to prohibit gaslighting, then prohibit gaslighting. Again, it's that fucking easy.

I understand the frustration that comes with decades upon decades of shitty culture. I understand the frustration in seeing people who were supposed to be "the good guys" turning out to have been shitty too. But demanding immediate resignation of anyone who is accused of anything without a calm and reasoned look at the facts is going to empower some really shitty people. We're already seeing shitbags like Mike Cernovich and James O'Keefe running this sort of scam, and if it is directly rewarded in a partisan manner, it's only going to get worse. We're already seeing that now with Joy-Ann Reid and now Sam Seder, where we're literally seeing right-wingers trolling major news networks into firing journalists for old tweets taken out of context.

"Well at least we're better than the Republicans" can only last us so long.

Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #40
Dumb ass media companies taking tweets out of context is bad but that's not the same thing here.

Franken and Conyers have a pattern of abuse and I'd be surprised if there aren't more allegations in the future. Get them outta Congress.


eta: Seder's tweet was obviously taking a shot at the garbage people defending Polanski because of "art," and MSNBC is awful for taking that bait. Reid's writing seems to have actually been bad.

Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #41
I think you're forgetting the part where Al Franken is Jewish and Teeth is a moron who thinks that is what is important here.

Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #42
I hoped he'd be Hillary's running mate :(
oh wow that would have been some shit


Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #44
I hoped he'd be Hillary's running mate :(
oh wow that would have been some shit

honestly I wouldn't trust any male for P or VP at this point because odds are they groped someone, or worse

Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #45
Not asking for their resignation would ALSO "play into the hands of Republicans" not least by giving them an excuse to tolerate Moore and Trump.
News tip, they don't just tolerate Moore and trump, they fucking embrace them.

Quote
And forcing out Conyers but not Franken was a terrible look.
Forcing them out may not have been the correct approach, but Conyers' initial offense looked much worse than Franken's.

Quote
Took Dems a while to get to the summit of the moral high ground, but better late than never. 
They'll lose even more influence, but at least they'll have the high ground...Fuck I hate that our system requires this kind of calculation, but if we had the GOP even from back in Reagan's day, I'd be all for taking the high ground. Now?  I'm not so sure it's the best option. :(
Quote
Because optics apart, this isn't a prosecution so OF COURSE the default should be to believe the women, not least because the (correct) perception that you won't be believed is exactly why so few women actually break their silence.
Good point here. Fucking hell, I hate our dumb political system. Can we at least get more than 2 options?


  • meepmeep
  • Administrator
  • zombiecat queen
Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #47
The point is you ask for a serious investigation, state that you will stand by the findings of the investigation, and demand bipartisan buy-in to the investigatory system. Once that investigation is completed, you then ask for the resignation. It's not that fucking hard.

I'm sure our functional Congress ruled by serious Republicans who don't have any sexual harassment problems of their own would be eager to set up serious bipartisan investigations. Getting Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan on board will take away all of the dangerous partisanship involved in all of these allegations.

  • meepmeep
  • Administrator
  • zombiecat queen
Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #48


rly makes u dink

yes when will the democrats start criticizing trump i am so so mad smdh

Re: Goddamnit Al
Reply #49
The point is you ask for a serious investigation, state that you will stand by the findings of the investigation, and demand bipartisan buy-in to the investigatory system. Once that investigation is completed, you then ask for the resignation. It's not that fucking hard.

I'm sure our functional Congress ruled by serious Republicans who don't have any sexual harassment problems of their own would be eager to set up serious bipartisan investigations. Getting Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan on board will take away all of the dangerous partisanship involved in all of these allegations.

So make them oppose it on record. Make them repeatedly say that they don't care and that it is politically expedient for them to let he Dems deal with it on their own and not clean up their own shop.

Or are we just giving up and accepting that the Republicans are dismantling whatever's left of our democracy and getting a little bloodletting now because it's at least cathartic.