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Topic: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies (Read 359 times) previous topic - next topic

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Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
If they are not, then please explain to me at what point they BECOME babies ... when they exit the birth canal? When the cord is cut?  How about preemies? Are THEY fetuses? Not babies?

Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #1
At a vague point at which the brain is sufficiently developed.

ETA: Ah, I see what this is in relation to. Yes, after they've exited the birth canal. Premature babies would be babies once they're out in the incubator. Before then they would be fetuses. In context people would be talking about humans that have been born, but are too young to be described as "toddlers". Infant would be a suitable alternative word.

Words not only mean things, but that meaning may be contextual.
  • Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 08:27:17 AM by DaveGodfrey
Why do I bother?

  • Pingu
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #2
If they are not, then please explain to me at what point they BECOME babies ... when they exit the birth canal? When the cord is cut?  How about preemies? Are THEY fetuses? Not babies?

They become babies when they are born.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #3
Also:
embryonic goats are not called "kids".
embryonic horses are not called "foals".
embryonic whales are not called "calfs".
and so on.

It turns out words have meanings.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • Pingu
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #4
What Dave is really asking, of course, is why we (or some of us) do not regard unborn fetuses as babies in the legal sense of being a person.

It's a decent question, given that we do in fact refer to "unborn babies" in many contexts, including when we are pregnant.

I'm happy to give my answer to that question.

I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #5
It's simple Dave. 

The pig fetus was born and then soon became a dead piglet.
The rabbit fetuses were born and became dead kits.

Get it now?

Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #6
If they are not, then please explain to me at what point they BECOME babies ... when they exit the birth canal? When the cord is cut? 

When their 401K matures.

Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #7
Who cares about the label? What does calling them "babies" accomplish?
"At least you can fucking die and leave North Korea." - Christopher Hitchens

  • Sea Star
  • Not an octohatter
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #8
Lol
EDIT: Actually that's a pretty weird comparison. I've never even heard of anyone "raping" a baby.  Aborting, yes. But never raping.

http://theworldlink.com/bandon/news/sean-jeffrey-haga-indicted-on-sexual-abuse-charges/article_88da2176-b746-520b-b8e3-7be2c5518b24.html

His daughter was just a few months old. But perhaps you don't define sodomy as a type of rape.

  • Pingu
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #9
Who cares about the label? What does calling them "babies" accomplish?

Well, according them human rights and birthright citizenship potentially accomplishes quite a lot.  So it does matter.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • Spode
  • I'm sorry.
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #10
If they are not, then please explain to me at what point they BECOME babies ... when they exit the birth canal? When the cord is cut?  How about preemies? Are THEY fetuses? Not babies?

What babies in and out of the womb are is freeloaders. They need to get a job and pay taxes like everyone else. Parasitic teet suckers. They don't even speak English. This is America. Pull your fair share or GET OUT.

Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #11
If they are not, then please explain to me at what point they BECOME babies ... when they exit the birth canal? When the cord is cut?  How about preemies? Are THEY fetuses? Not babies?
What if they don't become babies at any point? What if it is gradual?

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #12
What if they don't become babies at any point? What if it is gradual?
What if, between "ALL" and "NONE", there were . . .                    

 Spoiler (click to show/hide)
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • Pingu
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #13
I don't think Dave really wants an answer to his OP.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • Doobie Keebler
  • Ridiculous Callipygous
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #14
I have a question for you, Dave.

One day you are walking down the street and notice smoke coming from a building.

Rushing to see what the problem is you discover that a fire is raging within.

You open the door to see an infant in a crib in one corner of the burning room and an IVF incubator containing a dozen fertilized embryos readied for implantation in another corner.

The fire is about to consume the entire room and you realize you can only save either the infant or the incubator, the other will perish in the fire.

Which do you save and why ?
"I'm over 70 and have never seen such , arrogance, incompetence and Ill -intentions as this President and his aids."    The Dotard     (posted 12 days after his 68th birthday)

  • Spode
  • I'm sorry.
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #15
I have a question for you, Dave.

One day you are walking down the street and notice smoke coming from a building.

Rushing to see what the problem is you discover that a fire is raging within.

You open the door to see an infant in a crib in one corner of the burning room and an IVF incubator containing a dozen fertilized embryos readied for implantation in another corner.

The fire is about to consume the entire room and you realize you can only save either the infant or the incubator, the other will perish in the fire.

Which do you save and why ?

A tortoise. What's that?

  • nesb
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #16
A hot dog is not a sandwich. I will not relent on this point.

Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #17
I have a question for you, Dave.

One day you are walking down the street and notice smoke coming from a building.

Rushing to see what the problem is you discover that a fire is raging within.

You open the door to see an infant in a crib in one corner of the burning room and an IVF incubator containing a dozen fertilized embryos readied for implantation in another corner.

The fire is about to consume the entire room and you realize you can only save either the infant or the incubator, the other will perish in the fire.

Which do you save and why ?

4th Law

  • Peez
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #18
I have a question for you, Dave.

One day you are walking down the street and notice smoke coming from a building.

Rushing to see what the problem is you discover that a fire is raging within.

You open the door to see an infant in a crib in one corner of the burning room and an IVF incubator containing a dozen fertilized embryos readied for implantation in another corner.

The fire is about to consume the entire room and you realize you can only save either the infant or the incubator, the other will perish in the fire.

Which do you save and why ?

A tortoise. What's that?
Let me tell you about my mother.

Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #19
What Dave is really asking, of course, is why we (or some of us) do not regard unborn fetuses as babies in the legal sense of being a person.

It's a decent question, given that we do in fact refer to "unborn babies" in many contexts, including when we are pregnant.

I'm happy to give my answer to that question.


OK I'm listening.

Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #20
What Dave is really asking, of course, is why we (or some of us) do not regard unborn fetuses as babies in the legal sense of being a person.

It's a decent question, given that we do in fact refer to "unborn babies" in many contexts, including when we are pregnant.

I'm happy to give my answer to that question.


OK I'm listening.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #21
If they are not, then please explain to me at what point they BECOME babies ... when they exit the birth canal? When the cord is cut?  How about preemies? Are THEY fetuses? Not babies?

Try the traditional Jewish view: personhood is acquired on the first breath. Compare Gen 1:7, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Do you recognize the Bible as some kind of authority? For an example of when a foetus isn't considered a person, read Gen 38:24, "And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." Not yet a person, no prospective infanticide.

Even better, Ex 21:22, "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine." "With child", that is rather "with a potential child", but no transgression of the thou shalt not kill/murder thing; the foetus is just a piece of property belonging to the man. Interesting turn of phrase "and yet no mischief follow" ....

If you have read the Bible, you should also have noticed the recipe for bringing on an abortion to an unfaithful wife. No problem getting rid of the growth. No arguing that the priest is allowed to murder.

  • Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 01:25:50 PM by Lugubert

  • Fenrir
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #22
It's what plants crave.

  • Pingu
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #23
What Dave is really asking, of course, is why we (or some of us) do not regard unborn fetuses as babies in the legal sense of being a person.

It's a decent question, given that we do in fact refer to "unborn babies" in many contexts, including when we are pregnant.

I'm happy to give my answer to that question.


OK I'm listening.

First of all, I do not hold the belief that human beings have an immortal soul, whether allocated at conception, birth, or some time in between (or for that matter, later). So bear that in mind as you read what follows.

I think that the development from fertilized ovum to human being is a gradual one.  In other words, I think the characteristics that are typical of human beings become gradually more present as the embryo, then fetus, then baby develop.  I also, by the way, think that death is a gradual process, which is why we no longer define death as the cessation of the heart-beat - we know we can often reverse a cardiac arrest, but that it ceases to become sensible as the brain becomes progressively more starved of oxygen, and therefore more irrecoverably damaged.

However, I also think that human beings have rights, and that we have a responsibility to other human beings.  I think we also have a responsibility to sentient animals, as it happens.  I think we should avoid causing pain and/or terror if we can.  So I am happier about the humane killing of animals for food than I am about keeping animals in conditions that cause them distress.

But when it comes to human beings (and possibly some animals) I think we also have a responsible not to take away their future. So if a human being, or sentient animal, has a future they can envisage, I think it is a form of theft to take it away.

And so it makes sense to me to mark the moment of birth (however premature) as the point at which that baby requires the rights of an adult human being.  It is the moment at which the baby's interests become independent of her mother, and so also the moment at which we can balance the rights of both equally without encroaching on either.  And it is also the beginning of the child's understanding that she is part of a world in which she has a role to play.

That is not to say we should disregard the rights of the unborn child to be comfortable and free of pain.  But the preceding arguments are why think the moment of birth is the most appropriate time to confer the right to a future, i.e. full human rights, on a baby.



I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • Martin.au
  • Thingyologist
Re: Babies in the Womb ARE Babies
Reply #24
When it can be c14 dated.
"That which can be asserted with evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." (Dave Hawkins)