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Topic: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World) (Read 146154 times) previous topic - next topic

Testy Calibrate, superhoop, whiterabbit, Dave Hawkins and 10 Guests are viewing this topic.
  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28250
Morans

Plural Morani. It is the name of Maasai boys of a certain age group after circumcision and before becoming full warriors.

  • Faid
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28251
i'm suggesting that this woman's sending organization might have sent food in with her.
  :rofl: 
No True Stotsman, and now Ad Hoc rats.

Dave's doing a speed run of all the fallacies, it seems.
  • Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 01:54:46 PM by Faid
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28252
Dave this is fucked up reasoning on your part.

what's really weird to me is the reason why you - a nontheist and  evolutionist -- would be lecturing me, a theist and creationist about the morality of "non-standard" marriage arrangements.

How stupid are you to think atheists or evolutionists have no morality?

Quote
YOU - supposedly -  believe that humans are just another animal and I think that most other animals have polygamous "marriages" and I don't think males have any compunctions against sexual relations with females that have just recently reached puberty. ( or whatever you call it in non-humans )

Showing your ignorance about the natural world as usual. Most male mammals instinctively know if a female is mature enough to mate with, through scent or other signs. Contrary to your notion of a seething rutting natural condition, many animals, particularly birds and mammals, are monogamous, mating for a season or for life..

Not really. While they may pair up for a season there's absolutely no guarantee of sexual fidelity - in fact in most birds "extra-pair copulation" is rife and many of the offspring a male raises aren't his, but he will often have fathered offspring in another bird's nest. 


I should have clarified 'monogamous as nesting pairs'. For many mammals once mating is accomplished/estrus is over the female will not mate again. Not that many animals can mate throughout the year, and really aren't very comparable to human mating habits.
Indeed not, and just because animals do (or don't) do it is no reason for humans to emulate them, Dave's simplistic understanding notwithstanding-
Quote
Also, afaik, #notallbirds.
Black Vultures IIRC. And (I think) albatrosses.

Lily Trotters do it the other way round. Females are larger and have harems of males who raise their young for them. (Apparently short dumpy ones are preferred as they're better at incubating eggs).
Why do I bother?

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28253
Also  from the Nordic science paper I posted earlier...
Quote
To a large extent, the Maasai live on the milk from their cattle, which means their diet is as full of fats as the diet of people living in the West. Unlike Westerners, however, the Maasai do not have many problems related to lifestyle diseases.
Whatever "Nordic science paper" that was.
And whatever credibility it might have.
This unsourced quote tells us exactly nothing about whether your proposition that a "Price-like diet"  ( ::) ) somehow protects against the effects of excessive sugar consumption is right.
Or anything else being debated here.
you have trouble keeping up so I will remind you what this latest debate was about... It was about longevity of the Masai.

 borealis posted some BS about 45 year lifespans  and while I cannot refute that with loads of data (who can?), I was able to post this English teachers report which gives us no indication whatsoever that life was nasty, brutish and short. Just the opposite picture in fact including the description of the 74-year-old guy described as "spritely" and still fathering children and taking a new bride.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28254
Also  from the Nordic science paper I posted earlier...
Quote
To a large extent, the Maasai live on the milk from their cattle, which means their diet is as full of fats as the diet of people living in the West. Unlike Westerners, however, the Maasai do not have many problems related to lifestyle diseases.
Whatever "Nordic science paper" that was.
And whatever credibility it might have.
This unsourced quote tells us exactly nothing about whether your proposition that a "Price-like diet"  ( ::) ) somehow protects against the effects of excessive sugar consumption is right.
Or anything else being debated here.
you have trouble keeping up so I will remind you what this latest debate was about... It was about longevity of the Masai.

 borealis posted some BS about 45 year lifespans  and while I cannot refute that with loads of data (who can?), I was able to post this English teachers report which gives us no indication whatsoever that life was nasty, brutish and short. Just the opposite picture in fact including the description of the 74-year-old guy described as "spritely" and still fathering children and taking a new child bride. WOO HOO!

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28255
Morani

Sorry

  • JonF
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28256
The existence of an old person tells you nothing about life expectancy in their culture.

You're awfully slow on the uptake.
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28257
Anyway ... the Masai ...  I have now posted two articles which contradict this idea that the Masai don't get enough to eat and that they live these horrible brutal short lives. They seem quite happy to me.
I'm not sure what two articles Hawkins is talking about here, but his observation here doesn't seem to square with the observation below from the research team discussed in the "Nordic science" link:

Dietary patterns, food and macronutrient intakes among adults in three ethnic groups in rural Kenya.
Quote
RESULTS: ...
Prevalence of underweight (BMI < 18·5 kg/m2) was 13·7 %, 20·5 % and 24·2 % in the Luo, Kamba and Maasai, respectively.
CONCLUSIONS:
The degree of food insecurity measured as a degree of undernutrition and as dietary patterns differed considerably among the ethnic groups. The Maasai and Kamba in particular were exposed to food insecurity.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28258
So one guy made it to 74 and presumably is fairly wealthy as he can support his increasingly large family group. Others not so much. As Borealis' links demonstrate.

A sample size of one bloke tells you nothing about female longevity, child mortality rates, the risk of death in childbirth, or the incidence of CVD.
Why do I bother?

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28259

 borealis posted some BS about 45 year lifespans  and while I cannot refute that with loads of data (who can?), I was able to post this English teachers report which gives us no indication whatsoever that life was nasty, brutish and short. Just the opposite picture in fact including the description of the 74-year-old guy described as "spritely" and still fathering children and taking a new bride.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how one sucks at science.

No, dave.
The existence of one "spritely" ( ::) ) 74 year old tells you nothing about the mean, modal, or typical lifespan of the group.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • Faid
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28260
Dave, read this:

http://maasaigirlseducation.org/the-need/the-life-of-a-maasai-woman/

Quote
Like most poor women in African nations, the majority of Maasai women in Kenya are destined to live a life of poverty and cultural oppression. Just one generation ago, less than 20 percent of Maasai women in Kenya enrolled in school. Today, even with free primary school education in Kenya since January 2003, only 48 percent of Maasai girls enroll in school, and only 10 percent of girls make it to secondary school.

Typically, Maasai girls are circumcised between the ages of 11 to 13 and soon afterwards married to a man chosen by her father in exchange for cattle and cash. A Maasai woman will never be allowed to divorce, except in the most egregious cases of physical abuse, and will never be allowed to marry again, even if the husband her father chooses is an old man who dies when she is still in her teens. Instead, she becomes the property of one of her husband's brothers. She will be one of multiple wives, and will have many children, regardless of her health or ability to provide for them. She will rise early every day to milk cows, and spend her days walking miles to water holes to launder clothes and get water, and to gather heavy loads of firewood to carry back home. If she is lucky, she will have a donkey to share her burden. She will live a life of few physical comforts, dependent on a husband and a family she did not choose. Her life expectancy is 45 years.
[...]
Maasai girls must face many obstacles to get an education, and most of those are related to the high level of poverty among the Maasai. The cost of education is prohibitive for most families, and the promise of a dowry is a powerful incentive for arranging a daughter's marriage as soon as she "crosses the childhood bridge." But cultural factors also contribute to preventing girls from getting and education.
Read the whole thing. Then THINK about it. Stop imagining yourself as the 74-yo man; TRY to imagine you're the 15-yo girl. See if you're in the mood for "woo hoos" then.

If that doesn't help, then nothing will.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28261
A sample size of one bloke tells you nothing about female longevity, child mortality rates, the risk of death in childbirth, or the incidence of CVD.
I'm guessing, too, that if one 74 y.o. "miniature Solomon" dude gets multiple young brides, there are going to be some morani whose futures won't be so rosy. 
Ever heard of the Mormon "lost boys", Hawkins?
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28262
Dave, read this:

http://maasaigirlseducation.org/the-need/the-life-of-a-maasai-woman/

Quote
Like most poor women in African nations, the majority of Maasai women in Kenya are destined to live a life of poverty and cultural oppression. Just one generation ago, less than 20 percent of Maasai women in Kenya enrolled in school. Today, even with free primary school education in Kenya since January 2003, only 48 percent of Maasai girls enroll in school, and only 10 percent of girls make it to secondary school.

Typically, Maasai girls are circumcised between the ages of 11 to 13 and soon afterwards married to a man chosen by her father in exchange for cattle and cash. A Maasai woman will never be allowed to divorce, except in the most egregious cases of physical abuse, and will never be allowed to marry again, even if the husband her father chooses is an old man who dies when she is still in her teens. Instead, she becomes the property of one of her husband's brothers. She will be one of multiple wives, and will have many children, regardless of her health or ability to provide for them. She will rise early every day to milk cows, and spend her days walking miles to water holes to launder clothes and get water, and to gather heavy loads of firewood to carry back home. If she is lucky, she will have a donkey to share her burden. She will live a life of few physical comforts, dependent on a husband and a family she did not choose. Her life expectancy is 45 years.
[...]
Maasai girls must face many obstacles to get an education, and most of those are related to the high level of poverty among the Maasai. The cost of education is prohibitive for most families, and the promise of a dowry is a powerful incentive for arranging a daughter's marriage as soon as she "crosses the childhood bridge." But cultural factors also contribute to preventing girls from getting and education.
Read the whole thing. Then THINK about it. Stop imagining yourself as the 74-yo man; TRY to imagine you're the 15-yo girl. See if you're in the mood for "woo hoos" then.

If that doesn't help, then nothing will.
You really are an idiot aren't you?  did you not read the report from the FEMALE teacher that said both parties were delighted about the upcoming nuptials?  and she didn't stop there. She went on to clarify that she was being sincere here.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28263

 borealis posted some BS about 45 year lifespans  and while I cannot refute that with loads of data (who can?), I was able to post this English teachers report which gives us no indication whatsoever that life was nasty, brutish and short. Just the opposite picture in fact including the description of the 74-year-old guy described as "spritely" and still fathering children and taking a new bride.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how one sucks at science.

No, dave.
The existence of one "spritely" ( ::) ) 74 year old tells you nothing about the mean, modal, or typical lifespan of the group.
but her article does give you a much more positive picture of the Masai lifestyle than many of these stupid science papers  where the authors can't even figure out the fact that the Masai ARE getting enough to eat otherwise they would die. Which only buttresses my view that scientists are agenda driven.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28264
So one guy made it to 74 and presumably is fairly wealthy as he can support his increasingly large family group. Others not so much. As Borealis' links demonstrate.

A sample size of one bloke tells you nothing about female longevity, child mortality rates, the risk of death in childbirth, or the incidence of CVD.
Oh fiddlesticks.  for once in your fucking life take a glass half full view of things instead of a glass half empty view, would you?

 I would sure hate  to be the guy on trial with you guys as jurors. "Guilty until proven innocent" I think would be your motto.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28265
You really are an idiot aren't you?
no u
Quote
  did you not read the report from the FEMALE teacher that said both parties were delighted about the upcoming nuptials?  and she didn't stop there. She went on to clarify that she was being sincere here.
:facepalm:

So you think the impression formed by this ONE teacher (FEMALE even!) about this ONE marriage tells us more than Faid's citation about " the majority of Maasai women in Kenya ".

"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28266
Dave, read this:

http://maasaigirlseducation.org/the-need/the-life-of-a-maasai-woman/

Quote
Like most poor women in African nations, the majority of Maasai women in Kenya are destined to live a life of poverty and cultural oppression. Just one generation ago, less than 20 percent of Maasai women in Kenya enrolled in school. Today, even with free primary school education in Kenya since January 2003, only 48 percent of Maasai girls enroll in school, and only 10 percent of girls make it to secondary school.

Typically, Maasai girls are circumcised between the ages of 11 to 13 and soon afterwards married to a man chosen by her father in exchange for cattle and cash. A Maasai woman will never be allowed to divorce, except in the most egregious cases of physical abuse, and will never be allowed to marry again, even if the husband her father chooses is an old man who dies when she is still in her teens. Instead, she becomes the property of one of her husband's brothers. She will be one of multiple wives, and will have many children, regardless of her health or ability to provide for them. She will rise early every day to milk cows, and spend her days walking miles to water holes to launder clothes and get water, and to gather heavy loads of firewood to carry back home. If she is lucky, she will have a donkey to share her burden. She will live a life of few physical comforts, dependent on a husband and a family she did not choose. Her life expectancy is 45 years.
[...]
Maasai girls must face many obstacles to get an education, and most of those are related to the high level of poverty among the Maasai. The cost of education is prohibitive for most families, and the promise of a dowry is a powerful incentive for arranging a daughter's marriage as soon as she "crosses the childhood bridge." But cultural factors also contribute to preventing girls from getting and education.
Read the whole thing. Then THINK about it. Stop imagining yourself as the 74-yo man; TRY to imagine you're the 15-yo girl. See if you're in the mood for "woo hoos" then.

If that doesn't help, then nothing will.
You really are an idiot aren't you?  did you not read the report from the FEMALE teacher that said both parties were delighted about the upcoming nuptials?  and she didn't stop there. She went on to clarify that she was being sincere here.

Why do you keep capitalising 'female'? Her sex doesn't make her any smarter nor does it make her older. Why do you believe hers and no other reports? Frankly she sounds like an oblivious tourist.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28267
but her article does give you a much more positive picture of the Masai lifestyle than many of these stupid science papers  where the authors can't even figure out the fact that the Masai ARE getting enough to eat otherwise they would die. Which only buttresses my view that scientists are agenda driven.
Oh look!
Hawkins is accusing some "stupid science papers" of saying something stupid* - without citing or otherwise identifying them in any way.

Who could have seen that coming?

* and then, stupidly, generalizing about "scientists" and "agendas"
  • Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 02:28:36 PM by VoxRat
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • Faid
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28268
Dave, read this:

http://maasaigirlseducation.org/the-need/the-life-of-a-maasai-woman/

Quote
Like most poor women in African nations, the majority of Maasai women in Kenya are destined to live a life of poverty and cultural oppression. Just one generation ago, less than 20 percent of Maasai women in Kenya enrolled in school. Today, even with free primary school education in Kenya since January 2003, only 48 percent of Maasai girls enroll in school, and only 10 percent of girls make it to secondary school.

Typically, Maasai girls are circumcised between the ages of 11 to 13 and soon afterwards married to a man chosen by her father in exchange for cattle and cash. A Maasai woman will never be allowed to divorce, except in the most egregious cases of physical abuse, and will never be allowed to marry again, even if the husband her father chooses is an old man who dies when she is still in her teens. Instead, she becomes the property of one of her husband's brothers. She will be one of multiple wives, and will have many children, regardless of her health or ability to provide for them. She will rise early every day to milk cows, and spend her days walking miles to water holes to launder clothes and get water, and to gather heavy loads of firewood to carry back home. If she is lucky, she will have a donkey to share her burden. She will live a life of few physical comforts, dependent on a husband and a family she did not choose. Her life expectancy is 45 years.
[...]
Maasai girls must face many obstacles to get an education, and most of those are related to the high level of poverty among the Maasai. The cost of education is prohibitive for most families, and the promise of a dowry is a powerful incentive for arranging a daughter's marriage as soon as she "crosses the childhood bridge." But cultural factors also contribute to preventing girls from getting and education.
Read the whole thing. Then THINK about it. Stop imagining yourself as the 74-yo man; TRY to imagine you're the 15-yo girl. See if you're in the mood for "woo hoos" then.

If that doesn't help, then nothing will.
You really are an idiot aren't you?  did you not read the report from the FEMALE teacher that said both parties were delighted about the upcoming nuptials?  and she didn't stop there. She went on to clarify that she was being sincere here.
So an entire foundation devoted to addressing those problems are idiots, and the issues themselves are "BS", because a "FEMALE" teacher lived with a family where an old man married a 15-year old girl and said that "both parties were delighted".

Pathetic. And hopeless.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • nesb
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28269
If you can't conclude all things from singular anecdotes, then you might need to check your science gauge, because you aren't sciencing hard enough.

  • Faid
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28270
You know, I bet that 15-yo girl was happy and proud of being circumcised at age 13! It was probably her glorious moment of initiation into womanhood, meaning she would soon be able to marry that "Wise" and "Virtuous" 74-yo man all the girls her age were dreaming of! That FEMALE teacher says nothing different, so it must be so!

Seriously dave. Just shut up. You're making it worse and worse for yourself.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28271
It was probably her glorious moment of initiation into womanhood, meaning she would soon be able to marry that "Wise" and "Virtuous" 74-yo man all the girls her age still are dreaming of!

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28272
Is a 15 year old Massai girl even allowed to not be delighted marrying a 74 year old tribal leader?

I mean can she even say, "no"?

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28273
what's really weird to me is the reason why you - a nontheist and  evolutionist -- would be lecturing me, a theist and creationist about the morality of "non-standard" marriage arrangements.

wtaf?


YOU - supposedly -  believe that humans are just another animal and I think that most other animals have polygamous "marriages" and I don't think males have any compunctions against sexual relations with females that have just recently reached puberty. ( or whatever you call it in non-humans )

 so why should YOU have any problem with a 74-year-old Masai man getting excited about a 15-year-old bride who has no doubt reached puberty?

 :gonk:


you are just talking out of your ass. Again.

I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28274
Who knows Dave, maybe the little bitch was manipulating the poor 74 year old?  Have you tried that one out for size?