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Topic: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World) (Read 130861 times) previous topic - next topic

Testy Calibrate, Spode, Alfonso Bivouac, Dave Hawkins and 9 Guests are viewing this topic.
  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28700
deep
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • Zombies!
  • Honorary Manipulative Bitch
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28701
If you want to talk about word definitions, then here's one for you to work on that I think is a lot more interesting and relevant than what you are talking about ...

FREEDOM

We in the USA claim to be "the land of the FREE and the home of the brave" ... but are we truly free?

Well ... it depends on your definition of "free."  I would say we are MORE free than say Jews in Nazi Germany ... I'm glad we are not restricted like they were.  Or people today in N. Korea.  We certainly have more freedom than they do.

But what if we compare ourselves to the people of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy that lived in what we call New England in Benjamin Franklin's day?  How does our freedom compare to theirs?

Or how about the Wai Wai people who live in the little jungle of village called Masakenari in Konashen District in southern Guyana, S. America?  How does our freedom compare to theirs?
What the hell does that have to do with "Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)"?  Focus, ffs.
My own theory is that he kens fine he jist disnae wantae.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28702
And here's a Facebook post I just made this morning related to this ...

Quote
Yes, American farming is in big trouble ... has been for decades but I myself didn't realize it until a few years ago ... there IS a solution, I believe, but it's going to require huge mental shifts ... an entirely new way of thinking ... I have finally made the shift myself, but the key to saving farming is to inspire others to make the shift as well ... What "huge mental shift" am I talking about? Well here's a big one ... LAND ... who does it belong to? And what should we do with it? Take my little 10 acres for example ... back before the European conquest, my little 10 acres was used by people we now call Native Americans ... for what I don't know, but perhaps buffalo roamed it. The United States got involved in my little 10 acres in 1803 purchasing it from France for about 47 cents an acre (2016 dollars). I bought it in about 2004 for about $4000 an acre (a problem we can talk about another day). Prior to me purchasing it, the guy I purchased it from used it for row crop farming - corn and soybeans - one of the major types of farming described above that is causing so many suicides. Why was he farming in this way? Well because "it's what's done" that's why. But as we learned from Cinderella recently, "just because it's what's done doesn't mean it's what should be done" right? And I contend that corn and soybean farming is NOT what should be done for a multitude of reasons too numerous to list here. Anyway, in my opinion, what *should* be done with land like mine is *feed people*. Directly. Without banks. Without Monsanto. Without John Deere. Without all that stuff that enslaves farmers and pushes them to commit suicide. That is exactly what I am attempting to do on my little 10 acres. I'm having some success and I'm getting better at it each year. Who'll join me?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/06/why-are-americas-farmers-killing-themselves-in-record-numbers

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28703
If you want to talk about word definitions, then here's one for you to work on that I think is a lot more interesting and relevant than what you are talking about ...

FREEDOM

We in the USA claim to be "the land of the FREE and the home of the brave" ... but are we truly free?

Well ... it depends on your definition of "free."  I would say we are MORE free than say Jews in Nazi Germany ... I'm glad we are not restricted like they were.  Or people today in N. Korea.  We certainly have more freedom than they do.

But what if we compare ourselves to the people of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy that lived in what we call New England in Benjamin Franklin's day?  How does our freedom compare to theirs?

Or how about the Wai Wai people who live in the little jungle of village called Masakenari in Konashen District in southern Guyana, S. America?  How does our freedom compare to theirs?
Pulling this forward ...

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28704
Maybe use a winch on a timer?
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28705
Anyway...

Back to the subject:
How is it not circular reasoning to conclude that Photon's bad teeth had to be due to insufficiently "Price like" diet, despite the fact that his diet had been much "Price-like" than yours?

And are you going to acknowledge that you face-planted with your characterization of Pingu's post?
I.e. (sic) Have you figured out the significance of 'e.g.' ?
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • JonF
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28706
If you want to talk about word definitions, then here's one for you to work on that I think is a lot more interesting and relevant than what you are talking about ...

FREEDOM

We in the USA claim to be "the land of the FREE and the home of the brave" ... but are we truly free?

Well ... it depends on your definition of "free."  I would say we are MORE free than say Jews in Nazi Germany ... I'm glad we are not restricted like they were.  Or people today in N. Korea.  We certainly have more freedom than they do.

But what if we compare ourselves to the people of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy that lived in what we call New England in Benjamin Franklin's day?  How does our freedom compare to theirs?

Or how about the Wai Wai people who live in the little jungle of village called Masakenari in Konashen District in southern Guyana, S. America?  How does our freedom compare to theirs?
Pulling this forward ...
Oh, look, a shiny thing!
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28707
 Pingu misrepresented my view. But maybe she didn't do it intentionally so I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.

 as for photons teeth, I can only guess why they were "bad" when he was young. I suppose by "bad" he means that he got a lot of cavities.  my best guess is that he is not remembering correctly what his diet was like as a kid.  if his diet was truly what he says it was, then I can only guess that the animals on his farm were raised on depleted ground, which Weston Price spends quite a bit of time talking about in his book.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28708
Price ch. 20 ...

"If we relate the levels of life of human and domestic animals to the problem of soil depletion, we find two important groups of data. First, there are those which relate to specific land areas, some small and some very large; and second, those which relate to civilizations and groups, both large and small that have passed out of existence or are rapidly deteriorating. A study of the skeletons of the past and present often discloses a progressive breakdown. For example, we may mention the important anthropological findings of Professor Hooton of Harvard, who, in his examinations of various pueblos of the Western Plains, especially at the Pecos Pueblo where the progressive burials have been uncovered, has brought to light the calendar of a civilization extending over a thousand years. These findings show that there has been over the period of years a progressive increase in skeletal deformities, including arthritis and dental caries, together with a reduction in stature, suggesting a direct relationship to progressive depletion of the soil."

  • JonF
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28709
The rational conclusion is that Price and you are full of shit and Photon's report is pretty accurate.
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

  • JonF
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28710
Price ch. 20 ...

"If we relate the levels of life of human and domestic animals to the problem of soil depletion, we find two important groups of data. First, there are those which relate to specific land areas, some small and some very large; and second, those which relate to civilizations and groups, both large and small that have passed out of existence or are rapidly deteriorating. A study of the skeletons of the past and present often discloses a progressive breakdown. For example, we may mention the important anthropological findings of Professor Hooton of Harvard, who, in his examinations of various pueblos of the Western Plains, especially at the Pecos Pueblo where the progressive burials have been uncovered, has brought to light the calendar of a civilization extending over a thousand years. These findings show that there has been over the period of years a progressive increase in skeletal deformities, including arthritis and dental caries, together with a reduction in stature, suggesting a direct relationship to progressive depletion of the soil."
[reference required]
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28711
Very next paragraph ...

"In a recent magazine article, I have presented data (1) comparing the mineral content of different pasture grasses, and relating these to deficiencies in cattle. Unfortunately, space does not permit reviewing these data here in detail. They show that calcium varied from 0.17 per cent for a dry pasture grass in Arizona to 1.9 per cent in a Pennsylvania pasturage plant, to 2 per cent in a British Columbia pasturage plant, a range of over ten fold. Similarly, phosphorus was shown to vary from 0.03 per cent to 1.8 per cent, a range of sixty fold. Neither pasture animals nor human beings can eat a sufficient amount of low mineral plant food to provide the total mineral requirements of ordinary metabolism. In cases of overload, such as pregnancy and lactation in adults, and rapid growth in children, the demand is increased greatly. For example, a high-milk-production cow from southern Texas on a certain low mineral pasture will run behind her normal requirements about 60 grams of phosphorus and 160 grams of potassium per day. In that district large numbers of cattle were unable at the time to maintain their own bodies, let alone reproduce or provide milk. Many cattle in the district developed loin disease. It was found that moving them to another plot of ground where the soil was not depleted provided recovery."

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28712

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28713
Pingu misrepresented my view.

I did NOT misrepresent your view.  Actually, YOU misrepresented what I wrote.

I wrote:


Dave: Bad diet causes bad teeth, e.g. not enough unpasteurised grass-fed milk. 
Photon: I drank lots of unpasteurised grass-fed milk as a child but I still had bad teeth. Teeth improved when I moved to the city and started brushing and drinking fluoridated water and stopped drinking lots of unpasteurised grass-fed milk.
Dave: Your diet as a child must have been bad.

Not even circular, just batshit

You complained that:

Your post implied that my view is that not enough unpasteurized grass-fed milk will cause bad teeth. But that's not my view. And that's not prices View. I'm using Siri and I don't know why it doesn't capitalize price and it does capitalize View. Anyway prices view is that nutrition needs to be adequate in order to have good teeth and it can be many different types of foods that Supply adequate nutrition as he explained in his book.

But nothing in my post says, or even implies, that your view is "that not enough unpasteurized grass-fed milk will cause bad teeth".

Read it again.  I attributed to you the view that:
Quote
Bad diet causes bad teeth, e.g. [=FOR EXAMPLE] not enough unpasteurised grass-fed milk. 

Did you not know that "e.g." means "for example"?
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28714
Dave, why is it impossible for you to consider the possibility that Price got certain things wrong?

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28715
Ok Pingu ... whatever ...

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28716
Dave, why is it impossible for you to consider the possibility that Price got certain things wrong?
Oh I have no problem considering the possibility ...

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28717
Pingu misrepresented my view.
No. She didn't. 
You are misrepresenting her post.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • Sea Star
  • Not an octohatter
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28718
 
Dave, why is it impossible for you to consider the possibility that Price got certain things wrong?
I think it's the law about evidence vs speculation. Dunno what number.
Or is there a separate "Davehastoberightism" law or corollary?

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28719
Ok Pingu ... whatever ...

Well, whatever it is, you were wrong.  I did not imply that you thought that lack of unpasteurised grass-fed milk caused bad teeth.  I said that you thought that bad diet caused bad teeth.  Unless you DON'T think that, I have not misrepresented you.

But if you DON'T think that bad diet causes bad teeth, I'm not sure why you keep banging on about Price.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28720
Dave, why is it impossible for you to consider the possibility that Price got certain things wrong?
Oh I have no problem considering the possibility ...
Actually, you DO have a problem considering that possibility:
Quote
  if his diet was truly what he says it was, then I can only guess that the animals on his farm were raised on depleted ground...
Other "guesses" are available if you consider the possibility that Price was wrong.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28721
Dave, why is it impossible for you to consider the possibility that Price got certain things wrong?
Oh I have no problem considering the possibility ...
Yes, you do. You have been presented with the multitude of evidence that has accumulated since Price many times that shows exactly what he got wrong. Your only response has been to dismiss it by baselessly accusing the scientists of bias. Your only support for that claim is the fact that their research shows Price was wrong. Ergo, your position is that Price is right no matter what, and anything that says anything different from Price must be wrong because Price must be right. I.e., you are incapable of considering the possibility that he got anything wrong.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28722
Truth to tell... I don't remember if Photon himself has a theory as to why his dental health was so poor growing up.
Photon? Are you there?
Bad genetics?
Lack of professional attention?
Inadequate routine hygiene?
Sucrose in the diet (aside from its overall the "Price-likeness")?
Other?
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28723
Did you not know that "e.g." means "for example"?
Perhaps Dave "tut-tut! careful reading!" Hawkins just failed to ...
read carefully.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • JonF
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28724
Very next paragraph ...

"In a recent magazine article, I have presented data (1) comparing the mineral content of different pasture grasses, and relating these to deficiencies in cattle. Unfortunately, space does not permit reviewing these data here in detail. They show that calcium varied from 0.17 per cent for a dry pasture grass in Arizona to 1.9 per cent in a Pennsylvania pasturage plant, to 2 per cent in a British Columbia pasturage plant, a range of over ten fold. Similarly, phosphorus was shown to vary from 0.03 per cent to 1.8 per cent, a range of sixty fold. Neither pasture animals nor human beings can eat a sufficient amount of low mineral plant food to provide the total mineral requirements of ordinary metabolism. In cases of overload, such as pregnancy and lactation in adults, and rapid growth in children, the demand is increased greatly. For example, a high-milk-production cow from southern Texas on a certain low mineral pasture will run behind her normal requirements about 60 grams of phosphorus and 160 grams of potassium per day. In that district large numbers of cattle were unable at the time to maintain their own bodies, let alone reproduce or provide milk. Many cattle in the district developed loin disease. It was found that moving them to another plot of ground where the soil was not depleted provided recovery."
Let's see the "magazine article".
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins