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Topic: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World) (Read 131258 times) previous topic - next topic

BenTheBiased, Dave Hawkins, Pingu and 9 Guests are viewing this topic.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28750
Look you idiots ...  I'm simply floating a hypothesis out there to explain Photon's bad teeth that I think is better supported than yours ... namely, that his pastures were depleted of minerals like calcium, phosphorus and potassium ... and perhaps others.  I'm floating this hypothesis based on Weston Price's work which you people apparently are too lazy to even read.

What you SAID was that the ONLY explanation you could think of was that Photon's diet had something missing.

Given that there is NO evidence that anything was missing from Photon's diet (except possibly fluoride) that wasn't MORE missing when he moved to an evil city diet, the very point at which his teeth improved, the hypothesis that FITS THE DATA is that something that Photon did after leaving the farm improved his dental health.  e.g. fluoride and brushing.

But you are not OPEN to this POSSIBILITY because it would mean Price was wrong, and despite your pretensions to being open to the POSSIBILITY that he is wrong, you insist that yours is the ONLY explanation you can think of.  Which makes you not only blind but dumb.
Have you considered the possibility that (a) Photon's pastures and gardens might have been woefully deficient in various minerals and (b) that when he moved to the city, he began eating FORTIFIED foods, which would be a reasonable guess based on the likely timeframe of his move ... i.e. probably not 1930.  More like 1970 or 1980 I'm guessing.  I think - but I'm not sure - that food companies began fortifying foods with minerals and vitamins well before the 1970s / 1980s.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28751
Look you idiots ...  I'm simply floating a hypothesis out there to explain Photon's bad teeth that I think is better supported than yours ... namely, that his pastures were depleted of minerals like calcium, phosphorus and potassium ... and perhaps others.
No. Saying that this is the only possible explanation (or "I can only guess") =/= "floating a hypothesis"

Quote
I'm floating this hypothesis based on Weston Price's work which you people apparently are too lazy to even read.
Oh, I've read some of it.
How much of Brent Dalrymple's "Age of the Earth" have you read, Lazy Dave? 

(Or "Origin of Species" ? )
  • Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 12:22:50 PM by VoxRat
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28752
Have you considered the possibility that (a) Photon's pastures and gardens might have been woefully deficient in various minerals and (b) that when he moved to the city, he began eating FORTIFIED foods
I.e. have we considered the possibility that "town food" might actually be superior to a "Price-like diet"?

Yes. I have considered that.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28753
Fine but remember that town food in 1980 was different than town food in 1930.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28754
Have YOU considered the possibility that it was fluoride and better dental hygiene that made the difference in Photon's dental health, and that the farm-raised food of his childhood was no more mineral-deficient than that of Price's "primitives" ?
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28755
Have YOU considered the possibility that it was fluoride and better dental hygiene that made the difference in Photon's dental health, and that the farm-raised food of his childhood was no more mineral-deficient than that of Price's "primitives" ?
Of course.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28756
So it's just a matter of which hypothesis is better supported by the evidence.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28757
It would be surprising though if photons farm grasses were not depleted, given the practices of European farming.

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28758
Look you idiots ...  I'm simply floating a hypothesis out there to explain Photon's bad teeth that I think is better supported than yours ... namely, that his pastures were depleted of minerals like calcium, phosphorus and potassium ... and perhaps others.  I'm floating this hypothesis based on Weston Price's work which you people apparently are too lazy to even read.

What you SAID was that the ONLY explanation you could think of was that Photon's diet had something missing.

Given that there is NO evidence that anything was missing from Photon's diet (except possibly fluoride) that wasn't MORE missing when he moved to an evil city diet, the very point at which his teeth improved, the hypothesis that FITS THE DATA is that something that Photon did after leaving the farm improved his dental health.  e.g. fluoride and brushing.

But you are not OPEN to this POSSIBILITY because it would mean Price was wrong, and despite your pretensions to being open to the POSSIBILITY that he is wrong, you insist that yours is the ONLY explanation you can think of.  Which makes you not only blind but dumb.
Have you considered the possibility that (a) Photon's pastures and gardens might have been woefully deficient in various minerals and (b) that when he moved to the city, he began eating FORTIFIED foods, which would be a reasonable guess based on the likely timeframe of his move ... i.e. probably not 1930.  More like 1970 or 1980 I'm guessing.  I think - but I'm not sure - that food companies began fortifying foods with minerals and vitamins well before the 1970s / 1980s.

Well, think that through, Dave.

If true, it would suggest that, the problem for teeth with "western food" is NOT that it "displaces essential minerals", but that up until the thirties or so, when people like Price, but also many other (better) scientists, were discovering "vitamins" and their role in health, it did not supplement those essential minerals where they were lacking in "natural" food.

Which is NOT what Price argues NOR is it what you have argued.  You have argued that "natural" food (like the food in Photon's diet and all those "primitive" diets promotes fine teeth and bones while nasty western food doesn't, because it stops you eating the good stuff.

Yes, fortification of foods greatly helped in preventing rickets (which includes poor teeth).  Photon apparently did NOT have rickets.  Fluoride in water also helps in preventing dental caries.  Photon's farm may have been in an area with low fluoride levels.

But what ALSO causes dental caries is SUGAR and it does so NOT primarily by displacing essential nutrients (or why would Photon's teeth have improved, and why isn't that readily solved with fortification?) but by means of feeding the bacteria in the mouth which then secrete acid which lowers the pH at the enamel to a level low enough to demineralise the teeth.

Price got that part massively wrong.

I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28759
It would be surprising though if photons farm grasses were not depleted, given the practices of European farming.
Yeah, it would.
Considering the fact that Europeans have been productively farming in Europe for millennia, but "European" farming in Alberta started only recently.
Coupled with the fact that you don't have the first fucking clue what Photon's family's farming practices were wrt mineral depletion/replenishment.
  • Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 01:07:03 PM by VoxRat
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28760
So it's just a matter of which hypothesis is better supported by the evidence.

Exactly.  So in the specific case of Photon, it was either something he didn't do on the farm and did do on the city, or something he did do on the farm and didn't do in the city.

  • On the farm he ate natural food, but didn't brush his teeth and possibly didn't ingest fluoride.
  • In the city he ate "western" food, did brush his teeth, with fluoride toothpaste (and possibly drank fluoridated water).

There is NO evidence that his farm was depleted in minerals.  Apparently the animals and produce were fine.  There is no evidence that Photon had rickets.

There IS evidence that not brushing your teeth causes tooth decay (because the bacteria can eat the gubbins that hangs around in your mouth, and then secrete acid).  There IS evidence that fluoride protects against tooth decay by remineralising the enamel.

So the evidence would seem to fit the case that it was probably improved dental hygiene plus fluoride that helped Photon's teeth.

This is supported by vast amounts of evidence that except for specific deficiencies (Vitamin D, calcium, phosphorus) which cause poor bone and tooth development (rickets) in both humans AND farm animals, malnourishment is not a major cause of poor dental health (severely malnourished children often have perfect teeth), but that sugary starchy food is,  and the mechanism is NOT displacement of nutrients (see above) but via bacterial effects of mouth pH.
  • Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 01:23:39 PM by Pingu
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28761
 i'm using Siri so pardon the typos... There's two questions here... One is what caused photons teeth to be bad as a child? And the other question is what caused them to be better when he moved to the city?

 now you say that I claim that "natural foods" prevent cavities and maybe I wasn't precise enough with my language. What I probably should've been more clear about is that "indigenous foods" of the people groups that price visited prevented cavities.  I thought that would be obvious to anyone who has read price so I didn't think I needed to clarify,. In any case, now you should be clear on that point.  so the question is "was photons food fortified enough with vitamins and minerals to prevent cavities like prices  indigenous groups ?".  and unless photons father did some mineral testing of his pastures, we can only guess, and my guess would be "no."

 as to why his teeth improved when he moved to the city, I have already mentioned my best guess which is fortified foods. Town food of the 1930s was very deficient as price noted, but as this information became available, industrial food companies would have tried to put back some of the stuff they took out so as to not lose customers.  so by the time photon moved to the city, presumably in the 1980s or so, I'm sure that town food was more fortified than it was back in the 1930s.  also I suspect flora dated water did have something to do with it because it works on the same principle as price described, similar to how wood becomes petrified  in a mineral solution.

 as for good hygiene playing a role, it is true that if the saliva does not have enough protective factors, then acid from bacteria will attack the teeth  so it would be pretty darn important to brush your teeth.  but if the saliva has the required protective factors  by virtue of the diet , then it won't  and toothbrushing with toothpaste would not be important  as of course it was not important for all those indigenous groups.
  • Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 02:32:22 PM by Dave Hawkins

  • JonF
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28762
It would be surprising though if photons farm grasses were not depleted, given the practices of European farming.
It would be astonishing if you had a clue about the likelihood of Photons grasses were depleted.
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28763
so the question is "was photons food fortified enough with vitamins and minerals to prevent cavities like prices  indigenous groups ?".
Assuming, of course, that it was the (unmeasured) vitamins and minerals in the diets of Price's "primitives" that accounted for their dental health, relative to "non-primitives".
Quote
and unless photons father did some mineral testing of his pastures, we can only guess, and my guess would be "no."
But your "guess" is based entirely on circular reasoning.
Quote
as to why his teeth improved when he moved to the city, I have already mentioned my best guess which is fortified foods.
Again based entirely on circular reasoning.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28764
i'm using Siri so pardon the typos... There's two questions here... One is what caused photons teeth to be bad as a child? And the other question is what caused them to be better when he moved to the city?

 now you say that I claim that "natural foods" prevent cavities and maybe I wasn't precise enough with my language. What I probably should've been more clear about is that "indigenous foods" of the people groups that price visited prevented cavities.  I thought that would be obvious to anyone who has read price so I didn't think I needed to clarify,.

Well, that's even vaguer than "natural".  What on earth makes a food "indigenous"?  Bearing in mind that the vast majority of "indigenous" people aren't dairy farmers?

In any case, now you should be clear on that point.  so the question is "was photons food fortified enough with vitamins and minerals to prevent cavities like prices  indigenous groups ?".  and unless photons father did some mineral testing of his pastures, we can only guess, and my guess would be "no."

Why would you guess that?  The only mineral deficiencies that are likely to cause bad teeth are those that also cause rickets and problems with farm animals, and Photon reports none of that.

Geez but you are one blinkered fuck.

as to why his teeth improved when he moved to the city, I have already mentioned my best guess which is fortified foods.

Well, if that is your "best guess" you are pretty stupid.  Firstly there is no evidence that minerals were depleted on Photon's family farm in the first place (he was an athlete, unlikely if he had rickets as a child) and the farm seems not to have had problems with mineral deficient stock. Secondly, sure, the one mineral that MAY have been missing on the farm is fluoride, which we KNOW prevents dental caries, but has nothing to do with "indigenous foods", and we KNOW he started using fluoride toothpaste.  Thirdly we KNOW that brushing helps and we KNOW that he started brushing.

So your "best guess" is a



Town food of the 1930s was very deficient as price noted, but as this information became available, industrial food companies would have tried to put back some of the stuff they took out so as to not lose customers. 

Actually, they put stuff in that was never there, e.g. vitamin B12.  And yes, "town food of the 1930s" WAS very deficient, but Price didn't single out the deficiencies, he singled out the sugar and refined flour, and he was right to do so.  It's just that he thought these were displacing the right stuff, but it turned out they were a direct cause, via the mechanism of mouth bacteria and their secretion of enamel-dissolving acid.

so by the time photon moved to the city, presumably in the 1980s or so, I'm sure that town food was more fortified than it was back in the 1930s.  also I suspect flora dated water did have something to do with it because it works on the same principle as price described, similar to how wood becomes petrified  in a mineral solution.

So if you really believe this totally goalpost moving explanation, are you going to backtrack on your claim that bad teeth are caused by town food and that Real FoodTM is the only solution?  Will you now claim that fortifying flour with vitamins and minerals is just as effective (it isn't)?

as for good hygiene playing a role, it is true that if the saliva does not have enough protective factors, then acid from bacteria will attack the teeth.  but if the saliva has the required protective factors, then it won't.

[citation needed]  [but not Price because Price did not show this]
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28765
 i'm using Siri so pardon the typos... Think about your view for a minute... You have been repeating over and over again that it's sugar and refined carbohydrates that cause dental caries and you agree that photon didn't have much of that growing up, so according to your theory he should've had good teeth.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28766
 also I realize the proton says he took better care of his teeth when he moved to the city, but I presume that means flora dated water and dental check ups. Ssurely he brushed his teeth with toothpaste when he was a kid?  I cannot imagine his mom letting him get away without brushing his teeth.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28767
 also, I would need to check on this, but I suspect that it would take a much more severe nutritional deficiency to cause rickets than would be necessary to cause dental caries.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28768
 considering all this, I think my theory is better supported by the evidence than yours.

so nyah

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28769
i'm using Siri so pardon the typos... Think about your view for a minute... You have been repeating over and over again that it's sugar and refined carbohydrates that cause dental caries

which are the very foods that Price, repeatedly, cites as problematic elements of the "western" diets that he found to be associated with dental disease.

and you agree that photon didn't have much of that growing up, so according to your theory he should've had good teeth.

Unlike you, Dave, I think that most things have multiple possible causes. It's why in epidemiology the word "risk factor" is used.  Sugary starchy foods are a major risk factor for dental caries and we know why - it's because those foods are ingested by two specific species of acid-secreting bacteria. 

Fluoride reduces that risk.  Brushing reduces that risk.  Eating certain saliva-encouraging foods after meals reduces that risk, by diluting the acid.  Fatty foods can provide a protective layer in the mouth.  In other words, a lot of factors affect the mouth environment.

POSSIBLY certain aspects of the mouth environment are effect by nutrition, but the role is unclear.  What we do know is that certain specific deficiencies prevent good tooth development.

There are also genetic risk factors.  Some people inherit teeth with deep grooves that tend to trap food.  Also teeth that are crammed close together tend to trap food, and that can be genetic.  Also, some people inherit genes for poor enamel. 

Also, we tend to "Inherit" (though not via our own genes) our mother's dental flora, which may, or may not, include those specific mouth bacteria.  If you don't happen to have them, you may be able to eat sugar with impunity.

In other words there are a great many possible genetic and environmental factors why Photon might have had poor teeth as a child, or had risk factors for dental decay (e.g. teeth that tend to trap food) that were exacerbated by his poor dental hygiene, and possibly by lack of fluoride in the local water).  Going to sleep having just snacked or had a glass of milk is also a risky habit.

So I don't have one "theory" about what causes dental decay.  In fact I personally don't have ANY theory. But I have enough of a clue-by-four to be aware of what the risk factors for dental decay are.  And specifically, I have enough of a clue-by-four to know that there is COPIOUS evidence that the MECHANISM by which the association that Price observed between dental decay and "western diet" (in his own telling, high in sugar and refined flour) is NOT by displacement of nutrients (at least primarily, and not since widespread fortification, as you point out) but by the mechanism of acid-secreting mouth bacteria.

Dammit, people have even sequenced the genomes of the specific bacteria involved, and worked out that it was probably an advantageous mutation to take advantage of the greater sugar intake of human agriculturalists!

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/30/4/881/1068944

I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28770
also, I would need to check on this, but I suspect that it would take a much more severe nutritional deficiency to cause rickets than would be necessary to cause dental caries.

Now you are just making shit up.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28771
considering all this, I think my theory is better supported by the evidence than yours.

so nyah

Exactly.  That's basically where you are at right now.

I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • Fenrir
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28772
considering all this, I think my theory is better supported by the evidence than yours.

so nyah

Exactly.  That's basically where you are at right now.



I.E exactly where he started, with an ex-recto davination.
It's what plants crave.

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28773
Dave still doesn't get that a theory isn't evidence, and especially not evidence in support of that theory.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • Photon
  • I interfere with myself
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #28774
We've been through this already, Dave. The mineral depletions that might contribute to tooth decay would show up in the observable characteristics of the plants and animals in the area, none of which were observed. The farm where I grew up is on a ridge between two river valleys, both substantially carved from the continental glaciers. The land has a bit too much clay to be great farmland, pasture is a much better fit. It has never been farmed industrially and was only settled by Europeans in around 1910. Various Cree tribes would have been around using it before then, most likely.

My dad rotated crops on the field portions, but of the 640 acres I grew up on, about 500 acres or so was bush (mixed deciduous aspen and poplar, and mostly spruce evergreens).. It's an uneven mix of coulees and open meadows, and although small herds of animals have been on it almost continually, no plants or animals show signs of mineral depletion.

So, can you stop just extracting made-up desperate suppositions to go on about, especially since you've been informed those guesses are wrong?