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Topic: Macron (Read 1467 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • ksen
Re: Macron
Reply #75
B-b-b-but the election of Macron was supposed to show that Europe wasn't going down the Trump road like stupid America!

  • uncool
Re: Macron
Reply #76


Re: Macron
Reply #78
Here is a Guardian article that points out that a pragmatic reason for Macron's stance on immigration is that it is popular among the French. If only "les arabes" would embrace French language, culture, food, style and  forget their own cultural identities. They wouldn't be exactly welcomed but they might be better tolerated.

(this comment contains some irony)

Re: Macron
Reply #79
I sort of understand xenophobia.  It's not a big deal for me because I don't give a damn about most things but I do understand the idea that coming up with new workable systems constantly is unsettling to a lot of people. I think we (the left?) have done a really poor job of making immigration and systems to handle it go together.  It's a pretty privileged position to just be secure enough in a skillset that it makes sense to just let people move anywhere all willy nilly and deal with any fallout after the fact.

Also, the resource wars have begun.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Macron
Reply #80
I sort of understand xenophobia.  It's not a big deal for me because I don't give a damn about most things but I do understand the idea that coming up with new workable systems constantly is unsettling to a lot of people. I think we (the left?) have done a really poor job of making immigration and systems to handle it go together.  It's a pretty privileged position to just be secure enough in a skillset that it makes sense to just let people move anywhere all willy nilly and deal with any fallout after the fact.

Also, the resource wars have begun.

Uh we're talking about refugees. Refugees are not privileged. They are crossing borders out of desperation.

Re: Macron
Reply #81
I sort of understand xenophobia.  It's not a big deal for me because I don't give a damn about most things but I do understand the idea that coming up with new workable systems constantly is unsettling to a lot of people. I think we (the left?) have done a really poor job of making immigration and systems to handle it go together.  It's a pretty privileged position to just be secure enough in a skillset that it makes sense to just let people move anywhere all willy nilly and deal with any fallout after the fact.

Also, the resource wars have begun.

Uh we're talking about refugees. Refugees are not privileged. They are crossing borders out of desperation.
Oh, I understand. I am a part of a group that helps resettle refugees (connect them with advocacy groups/social services/housing coalitions, etc) from somalia mostly but technically its from anywhere. Working with the local communities who will be their neighbors has been eye opening to say the least. It really does put strain on place based services and those around them.

ETA: also,it's hard to fault people who don't have information and it's not always easy to answer the questions local people have. It's hard to overstate how much help it is to have programs to help refugees participate in local communities and provide a context for mutual respect.
  • Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 02:25:59 PM by Testy Calibrate
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Macron
Reply #82
My understanding is that in most cases refugees give back to their local economies much more than they strain those services. If the services are strained, it is often because the system is already underfunded. In the West, that is largely because we have convinced ourselves we don't need to fund infrastructure with progressive tax structures. When it strains social infrastructure, it is because there is already massive strain between xenophobes and minority groups that is not being dealt with. I assume this is what you're seeing in Oregon. That is not the fault of the refugees, who just want to escape deadly situations and protect their children.

Re: Macron
Reply #83
My understanding is that in most cases refugees give back to their local economies much more than they strain those services. If the services are strained, it is often because the system is already underfunded. In the West, that is largely because we have convinced ourselves we don't need to fund infrastructure with progressive tax structures. When it strains social infrastructure, it is because there is already massive strain between xenophobes and minority groups that is not being dealt with. I assume this is what you're seeing in Oregon. That is not the fault of the refugees, who just want to escape deadly situations and protect their children.
It isn't the refugees' faults. No. And the source of the strains is pretty much immaterial to the people who have to adjust to it. Especially old people who worry a lot about crime and islam (which they know pretty much nothing about usually). The crime issue is hard to address because it does increase a little bit in our experience. Kids are kids anywhere and cultural differences are occasionally profound. Mutual respect through participation seems to be the best thing we have going atm. We do get a lot of support from churches though which has been a really important facet of the program. If you can get people to meet face to face in a mutually beneficial community project, it makes the whole community stronger.

Nothing makes me more disgusted with conservative religion than its preachers preaching intolerance within the community. 
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Macron
Reply #84
If old people are having trouble adjusting to a more diverse community in order to save people from being murdered, then I have suggestions of how they can fix that problem.

Re: Macron
Reply #85
If old people are having trouble adjusting to a more diverse community in order to save people from being murdered, then I have suggestions of how they can fix that problem.
yeah but you are you. Old people aren't.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Macron
Reply #86
my suggestions for old people are "just die already"

Re: Macron
Reply #87
you can join in too!

Re: Macron
Reply #88
but seriously, Testy, is "we should let refugees die in wartorn hellholes because letting a few black people live in a neighborhood might cause economic anxiety among aging white Americans" really the hill you want to die on?

Re: Macron
Reply #89
but seriously, Testy, is "we should let refugees die in wartorn hellholes because letting a few black people live in a neighborhood might cause economic anxiety among aging white Americans" really the hill you want to die on?
Is "help! I'm an idiot!" really the hill you want to die on?

There's a substantial difference between having ideals and putting them into practice. In all cases, putting them into practice involves figuring out how to do that. I'm just saying that it is more complicated and even sometimes difficult than you think no matter how hard you try to turn moral judgment of others into the feeling that you've actually done something.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Macron
Reply #90
Literally telling old people with "economic anxiety" to get over it or just go ahead and die is actually "putting it into practice."

I've been involved in volunteer work for refugees so I'm not actually all "blah blah" on the internet. I also happen to feel very strongly about refugee issues because I have family who were refugees. I can honestly give a shit about whether bringing in refugees means a decrease in property values or a minor increase in property crime as people become acclimatized to their new surroundings and try to deal with PTSD and grief. It's literally not on my list of concerns. People who think a little graffiti is more important than saving the lives of people who are being killed for being from the wrong demographic are honestly not people who should have any say at all in anything more consequential than picking the type of tree to be planted in the local park.

Re: Macron
Reply #91
Yeah, well, I guess you can choose any hill you want. If that's yours, more power to you.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Macron
Reply #92
Another way to put that is teeth gotta teeth I supose.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor


Re: Macron
Reply #94
Monarchic leader of a literal slave state is an embodiment of of the French Revolution, just maybe not the side Macron was implying there.


I thought Macron would be pretty bad but he's far exceeded my expectations.

eta: apparently the French people agree https://www.politico.eu/article/emmanuel-macron-france-approval-ratings-hit-record-low-poll/

Re: Macron
Reply #95
Monarchic leader of a literal slave state is an embodiment of of the French Revolution, just maybe not the side Macron was implying there.

maybe he just means the beheading part

Re: Macron
Reply #96
it's great that he's teaming up with trump and may on this