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Topic: Oldest Human Remains (Read 19130 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • RickB
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3750

Quote
And in the consensus theory what is picked up from the common ancestor is not attributed to Neanderthal. Is that also clear?
They only attribute to the Neanderthal what evolved on the Neanderthal line after the Neanderthal branched from the common ancestor (1-4%).
Is that clear? Or do you need VoxRat to say that he knew that all along and everybody else knew it all along?
Well it seems that nobody understands this or are pretending not to understand it. Stage 1 is tedious.
I have said a few times that the only way out of Stage 1 is for someone to be honest.
I can help. In the consensus theory what is picked up from the common ancestor is not attributed to Neanderthal because it is attributed to the claimed African ancestor.
Of course it could just as easily be attributed to Neanderthal. Right?
Why is it not attributed to Neanderthals?
Anyone care to try and answer this question?
The straightforward answer is that they are not critically comparing Neanderthal to African claimed lineage. They are simply working WITHIN the Out of Africa theory.
I expect that everyone knows that but are unwilling to acknowledge it.



If you knew anything about the subject, you would know that the analysis that came to the consensus conclusion was far from 'uncritical'.

But then, you seem to think that being 'critical' is to espouse an unevidenced claim and then lie about having evidence.

Oh well, not worth arguing about.


Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3751

Quote
And in the consensus theory what is picked up from the common ancestor is not attributed to Neanderthal. Is that also clear?
They only attribute to the Neanderthal what evolved on the Neanderthal line after the Neanderthal branched from the common ancestor (1-4%).
Is that clear? Or do you need VoxRat to say that he knew that all along and everybody else knew it all along?
Well it seems that nobody understands this or are pretending not to understand it. Stage 1 is tedious.
I have said a few times that the only way out of Stage 1 is for someone to be honest.
I can help. In the consensus theory what is picked up from the common ancestor is not attributed to Neanderthal because it is attributed to the claimed African ancestor.
Of course it could just as easily be attributed to Neanderthal. Right?
Why is it not attributed to Neanderthals?
Anyone care to try and answer this question?
The straightforward answer is that they are not critically comparing Neanderthal to African claimed lineage. They are simply working WITHIN the Out of Africa theory.
I expect that everyone knows that but are unwilling to acknowledge it.


No one is going to be able to acknowledge anything about "them" until you tell us who "they" are.

  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3752
In case you can't tell, socrates:

No one here feels the need to honestly answer your questions, bevause you don't honestly answer ours.

If you actually answered our questions, I'd have linked the relevant paper and cited it more specifically than I have. But because of your constant dishonesty, I feel no need nor desire to.

You could start by answering my "prediction" post.
  • Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 09:22:55 AM by uncool

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3753
Is it clear to everyone that they only attribute to the Neanderthal what evolved on the Neanderthal line after the Neanderthal branched from the common ancestor (1-4%)?
it is clear that the statement itself is Not Even Wrong.

You have utterly failed again, "socrates".
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3754
And in the consensus theory what is picked up from the common ancestor is not attributed to Neanderthal. Is that also clear?
They only attribute to the Neanderthal what evolved on the Neanderthal line after the Neanderthal branched from the common ancestor (1-4%).
none of that makes even the slightest sense.

And in any case, it is certainly NOT what the authors refer to with the 1-4%.

I take it you HAVE read the paper, right? I mean, you've been referencing it for years. ::)
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3755
Quote
Saunt Taunga seems to have reached the limit of his bravery. But he did move the discussion along with his one act of bravery.
Unfortunately we do not seem to have any other brave souls.

But Neanderthals also had those genes. Right? Why attribute only 1-4% to Neanderthals?


What percentage of human DNA corresponds one to one with Neanderthal DNA? Just 1-4%? That is all they are attributing to Neanderthal. Right?

Any other similarity they do not attribute to Neanderthal.
Why do they not attribute any of the other similarity to Neanderthal?
Is it because it is from the common ancestor that they do not attribute that to Neanderthal?
There is something not right here. I am not sure if people realize it and are trying to hide it or not.
Nobody has given a serious answer to the question.
Also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal
Quote
The Neanderthal genome is almost the same size as the human genome and is identical to ours to a level of 99.7% by comparing the accurate order of the nitrogenous bases in the double nucleotide chain.[155]
They are almost exactly the same and yet they are only attributing 1-4% to Neanderthal.
Hard to tell if people do not see the problem or do see it and are hiding it. I know the problem because I was  able to figure this out only after email correspondence with the researchers. That was years ago.
They are almost exactly the same yet they are only attributing 1-4% to Neanderthal. They only attribute to the Neanderthal what evolved on the Neanderthal line after the Neanderthal branched from the common ancestor. Is that clear?
This is the crucial point. It should be clear by now.
It is hard for (some) folks here to grasp this because you keep thinking there was an introgression. That is only an ad hoc idea added to the consensus theory. To grasp this do not think in terms of an introgression.
Why do they only attribute to the Neanderthal what evolved on the Neanderthal line after the Neanderthal branched from the common ancestor (1-4%). Why not all of the 99.7%?
Is it clear to everyone that they only attribute to the Neanderthal what evolved on the Neanderthal line after the Neanderthal branched from the common ancestor (1-4%)?
And in the consensus theory what is picked up from the common ancestor is not attributed to Neanderthal. Is that also clear?
They only attribute to the Neanderthal what evolved on the Neanderthal line after the Neanderthal branched from the common ancestor (1-4%).
Is this clear to everyone? Anyone?
And in the consensus theory what is picked up from the common ancestor is not attributed to Neanderthal. Is that also clear?
They only attribute to the Neanderthal what evolved on the Neanderthal line after the Neanderthal branched from the common ancestor (1-4%).
Is that clear? Or do you need VoxRat to say that he knew that all along and everybody else knew it all along?
Repeating a pile of nonsensical BS, word for word, in consecutive posts, does not make it true.

None of what you say makes even the slightest sense, "socrates". You're embarrassing yourself.

But by all means, keep it up! Looks like we're in for yet another 'Haplotype E' moment. :D
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • RickB
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3756
I'm actually rather surprised that So-crates is not bloviating about the 20 or so percent of the Neanderthal DNA that is retained in the human genome.  Or maybe he realizes that it completely falsifies his 'evolved from Neanderthal' BS.

Or because he would then need to also explain why 90% of the Denisovan DNA is retained.

Hmmm, 90% is greater than 20%.  Doesn't that mean that we evolved from Devisovans!?!?!?
  • Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 09:46:28 AM by RickB

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3757
uncool has raised an issue that can easily be answered. In fact it is a prediction that the Neanderthal characteristics that are valuable for living in a cold environment would be lost after the migration INTO Africa which has a hot environment.
If people took a few minutes of thinking you would see that what you consider problems are often easily answered.
:rofl:

Is that so?

What were you saying a few pages ago about ad hoc stories, "socrates"? ::)

But tell you what- let's go with your ad hoc fairytale. If you go hot, you lose the "cold" genes. Cool.

And if you go cold, you lose the HOT genes. right?

Whoops! Now you have two popuations EQUALLY different from the ancestral one, that simply differ in a different way. And it's the same for any trait you might want to propose.

But we don't see that, do we?

Seriously, "socrates". You wouldn't embarrass yourself so much if you just read the paper.

After all these years, you think you can manage to do it?
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3758
Well it seems that nobody understands this or are pretending not to understand it. Stage 1 is tedious.
I have said a few times that the only way out of Stage 1 is for someone to be honest.
well that explains why you're stuck for all these years.

WHAT DO THE AUTHORS SAY, "socrates"?
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3759
When I say "attributed" I mean that the DNA in human is claimed to have descended from the African lineage. They attribute it to the African lineage and not the Neanderthal lineage.
Perhaps that was not clear.
Nope. Still gobbledygook.

You REALLY don't have a clue, do you?
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • RickB
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3760
uncool has raised an issue that can easily be answered. In fact it is a prediction that the Neanderthal characteristics that are valuable for living in a cold environment would be lost after the migration INTO Africa which has a hot environment.
If people took a few minutes of thinking you would see that what you consider problems are often easily answered.
:rofl:

Is that so?

What were you saying a few pages ago about ad hoc stories, "socrates"? ::)

But tell you what- let's go with your ad hoc fairytale. If you go hot, you lose the "cold" genes. Cool.

And if you go cold, you lose the HOT genes. right?

Whoops! Now you have two popuations EQUALLY different from the ancestral one, that simply differ in a different way. And it's the same for any trait you might want to propose.

But we don't see that, do we?

Seriously, "socrates". You wouldn't embarrass yourself so much if you just read the paper.

After all these years, you think you can manage to do it?

And those that crossed the Bering Sea to the Americas.  How did they get back the 'exact' same DNA when they moved from equatorial Americas to southern South America?


  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3761

Quote
And in the consensus theory what is picked up from the common ancestor is not attributed to Neanderthal. Is that also clear?
They only attribute to the Neanderthal what evolved on the Neanderthal line after the Neanderthal branched from the common ancestor (1-4%).
Is that clear? Or do you need VoxRat to say that he knew that all along and everybody else knew it all along?
Well it seems that nobody understands this or are pretending not to understand it. Stage 1 is tedious.
I have said a few times that the only way out of Stage 1 is for someone to be honest.
I can help. In the consensus theory what is picked up from the common ancestor is not attributed to Neanderthal because it is attributed to the claimed African ancestor.
Of course it could just as easily be attributed to Neanderthal. Right?
Why is it not attributed to Neanderthals?
Anyone care to try and answer this question?
The straightforward answer is that they are not critically comparing Neanderthal to African claimed lineage. They are simply working WITHIN the Out of Africa theory.
I expect that everyone knows that but are unwilling to acknowledge it.


Does everyone understand that those who have proposed that humans evolved in Africa have not critically compared Neanderthal to African claimed lineage? They are simply working WITHIN the Out of Africa theory.
That is why they had to make up the Neanderthal introgression stories. To accommodate evidence that did not fit the theory.

  • RickB
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3762
Does everyone understand that those who have proposed that humans evolved in Africa have not critically compared Neanderthal to African claimed lineage? They are simply working WITHIN the Out of Africa theory.
That is why they had to make up the Neanderthal introgression stories. To accommodate evidence that did not fit the theory.

Well, no.

But please continue to lie.  It looks so becoming on you.

I mean, so far we have you claiming 1-4% of something.
We have you claiming 99.7% of something.

And then you attribute these numbers to mysterious 'they' and ask us to explain them.

Do you see the problem So-crates?

  • Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 10:00:02 AM by RickB

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3763
It is easy to forget that Neanderthals are 99.7% identical to Humans.
That includes what Neanderthals inherited from the African migration plus the unique Neanderthal characteristics that evolved in the Neanderthal lineage after leaving Africa.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3764

Quote
And in the consensus theory what is picked up from the common ancestor is not attributed to Neanderthal. Is that also clear?
They only attribute to the Neanderthal what evolved on the Neanderthal line after the Neanderthal branched from the common ancestor (1-4%).
Is that clear? Or do you need VoxRat to say that he knew that all along and everybody else knew it all along?
Well it seems that nobody understands this or are pretending not to understand it. Stage 1 is tedious.
I have said a few times that the only way out of Stage 1 is for someone to be honest.
I can help. In the consensus theory what is picked up from the common ancestor is not attributed to Neanderthal because it is attributed to the claimed African ancestor.
Of course it could just as easily be attributed to Neanderthal. Right?
Worth repeating.

  • RickB
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3765
It is easy to forget that Neanderthals are 99.7% identical to Humans.
That includes what Neanderthals inherited from the African migration plus the unique Neanderthal characteristics that evolved in the Neanderthal lineage after leaving Africa.


Neanderthals migrated from Africa??

When did this happen??

Making up more stories So-crates?


  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3766

Quote
And in the consensus theory what is picked up from the common ancestor is not attributed to Neanderthal. Is that also clear?
They only attribute to the Neanderthal what evolved on the Neanderthal line after the Neanderthal branched from the common ancestor (1-4%).
Is that clear? Or do you need VoxRat to say that he knew that all along and everybody else knew it all along?
Well it seems that nobody understands this or are pretending not to understand it. Stage 1 is tedious.
I have said a few times that the only way out of Stage 1 is for someone to be honest.
I can help. In the consensus theory what is picked up from the common ancestor is not attributed to Neanderthal because it is attributed to the claimed African ancestor.
Of course it could just as easily be attributed to Neanderthal. Right?
Worth repeating.
I see a problem in the vocabulary that the researchers use. It is biased.
They talk about a common ancestor of humans and Neanderthals. That is only true if humans evolved from a lineage in Africa.
The alternative is that there was a common ancestor branching that led on one branch to Neanderthals and on the other branch to a lineage in Africa that went extinct.

  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3767
.
I see a problem in the vocabulary that the researchers use.
You do? Does that mean you've read actual papers?

Could you possibly link to them, copying and pasting the vocabulary they use?

  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3768
I wonder if socrates could fill in this sentence from the relevant paper: "Neandertals are the [left blank for the reader] of all present- day humans."

  • RickB
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3769
I see a problem in the vocabulary that the researchers use. It is biased.
They talk about a common ancestor of humans and Neanderthals. That is only true if humans evolved from a lineage in Africa.
The alternative is that there was a common ancestor branching that led on one branch to Neanderthals and on the other branch to a lineage in Africa that went extinct.


It seems that you are again making a claim for which you have no evidence.


  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3770
As a digression:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal
Quote
In April 2014, a first glimpse into the epigenetics of the Neanderthal was obtained with the publication of the full DNA methylation of the Neanderthal and the Denisovan.[178][182] The reconstructed DNA methylation map allowed researchers to assess gene activity levels throughout the Neanderthal genome and compare them to modern humans. One of the major findings focused on the limb morphology of Neanderthals. Gokhman et al. found that changes in the activity levels of the HOX cluster of genes were behind many of the morphological differences between Neanderthals and modern humans, including shorter limbs, curved bones and more.[182]

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3771
As a digression:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal
Quote
In April 2014, a first glimpse into the epigenetics of the Neanderthal was obtained with the publication of the full DNA methylation of the Neanderthal and the Denisovan.[178][182] The reconstructed DNA methylation map allowed researchers to assess gene activity levels throughout the Neanderthal genome and compare them to modern humans. One of the major findings focused on the limb morphology of Neanderthals. Gokhman et al. found that changes in the activity levels of the HOX cluster of genes were behind many of the morphological differences between Neanderthals and modern humans, including shorter limbs, curved bones and more.[182]
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/344/6183/523
http://www.eva.mpg.de/documents/AAAS/Gokhman_Reconstructing_Science_2014_2031123.pdf
Quote
Ancient DNA sequencing has recently provided high-coverage archaic human genomes. However, the evolution of epigenetic regulation along the human lineage remains largely unexplored. We reconstructed the full DNA methylation maps of the Neandertal and the Denisovan by harnessing the natural degradation processes of methylated and unmethylated cytosines. Comparing these ancient methylation maps to those of present-day humans, we identified ~2000 differentially methylated regions (DMRs). Particularly, we found substantial methylation changes in the HOXD cluster that may explain anatomical differences between archaic and present-day humans. Additionally, we found that DMRs are significantly more likely to be associated with diseases. This study provides insight into the epigenetic landscape of our closest evolutionary relatives and opens a window to explore the epigenomes of extinct species.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3772
As a digression:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal
Quote
In April 2014, a first glimpse into the epigenetics of the Neanderthal was obtained with the publication of the full DNA methylation of the Neanderthal and the Denisovan.[178][182] The reconstructed DNA methylation map allowed researchers to assess gene activity levels throughout the Neanderthal genome and compare them to modern humans. One of the major findings focused on the limb morphology of Neanderthals. Gokhman et al. found that changes in the activity levels of the HOX cluster of genes were behind many of the morphological differences between Neanderthals and modern humans, including shorter limbs, curved bones and more.[182]
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/344/6183/523
http://www.eva.mpg.de/documents/AAAS/Gokhman_Reconstructing_Science_2014_2031123.pdf
Quote
Ancient DNA sequencing has recently provided high-coverage archaic human genomes. However, the evolution of epigenetic regulation along the human lineage remains largely unexplored. We reconstructed the full DNA methylation maps of the Neandertal and the Denisovan by harnessing the natural degradation processes of methylated and unmethylated cytosines. Comparing these ancient methylation maps to those of present-day humans, we identified ~2000 differentially methylated regions (DMRs). Particularly, we found substantial methylation changes in the HOXD cluster that may explain anatomical differences between archaic and present-day humans. Additionally, we found that DMRs are significantly more likely to be associated with diseases. This study provides insight into the epigenetic landscape of our closest evolutionary relatives and opens a window to explore the epigenomes of extinct species.
I take from this that not only were the Neanderthals and first humans almost identical but that also the change from Neanderthal to human may not have been that difficult to accomplish.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3773
As a digression:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal
Quote
In April 2014, a first glimpse into the epigenetics of the Neanderthal was obtained with the publication of the full DNA methylation of the Neanderthal and the Denisovan.[178][182] The reconstructed DNA methylation map allowed researchers to assess gene activity levels throughout the Neanderthal genome and compare them to modern humans. One of the major findings focused on the limb morphology of Neanderthals. Gokhman et al. found that changes in the activity levels of the HOX cluster of genes were behind many of the morphological differences between Neanderthals and modern humans, including shorter limbs, curved bones and more.[182]
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/344/6183/523
http://www.eva.mpg.de/documents/AAAS/Gokhman_Reconstructing_Science_2014_2031123.pdf
Quote
Ancient DNA sequencing has recently provided high-coverage archaic human genomes. However, the evolution of epigenetic regulation along the human lineage remains largely unexplored. We reconstructed the full DNA methylation maps of the Neandertal and the Denisovan by harnessing the natural degradation processes of methylated and unmethylated cytosines. Comparing these ancient methylation maps to those of present-day humans, we identified ~2000 differentially methylated regions (DMRs). Particularly, we found substantial methylation changes in the HOXD cluster that may explain anatomical differences between archaic and present-day humans. Additionally, we found that DMRs are significantly more likely to be associated with diseases. This study provides insight into the epigenetic landscape of our closest evolutionary relatives and opens a window to explore the epigenomes of extinct species.
I take from this that not only were the Neanderthals and first humans almost identical but that also the change from Neanderthal to human may not have been that difficult to accomplish.
I'd say "difficult to accomplish" is biased vocabulary. Your teleological perspective is showing.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #3774
As a digression:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal
Quote
In April 2014, a first glimpse into the epigenetics of the Neanderthal was obtained with the publication of the full DNA methylation of the Neanderthal and the Denisovan.[178][182] The reconstructed DNA methylation map allowed researchers to assess gene activity levels throughout the Neanderthal genome and compare them to modern humans. One of the major findings focused on the limb morphology of Neanderthals. Gokhman et al. found that changes in the activity levels of the HOX cluster of genes were behind many of the morphological differences between Neanderthals and modern humans, including shorter limbs, curved bones and more.[182]
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/344/6183/523
http://www.eva.mpg.de/documents/AAAS/Gokhman_Reconstructing_Science_2014_2031123.pdf
Quote
Ancient DNA sequencing has recently provided high-coverage archaic human genomes. However, the evolution of epigenetic regulation along the human lineage remains largely unexplored. We reconstructed the full DNA methylation maps of the Neandertal and the Denisovan by harnessing the natural degradation processes of methylated and unmethylated cytosines. Comparing these ancient methylation maps to those of present-day humans, we identified ~2000 differentially methylated regions (DMRs). Particularly, we found substantial methylation changes in the HOXD cluster that may explain anatomical differences between archaic and present-day humans. Additionally, we found that DMRs are significantly more likely to be associated with diseases. This study provides insight into the epigenetic landscape of our closest evolutionary relatives and opens a window to explore the epigenomes of extinct species.
I take from this that not only were the Neanderthals and first humans almost identical but that also the change from Neanderthal to human may not have been that difficult to accomplish.
I'd say "difficult to accomplish" is biased vocabulary. Your teleological perspective is showing.
But if someone were to call it religious superstition I wouldn't argue.