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Topic: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software (Read 767 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #50
Also ... Life is mind numbingly complex ... so ST thinks that's a sign of bad design ...

But many man made items are also quite complex ... does this mean THOSE are bad design too?
Getting confused here again. You are failing to understand the difference between something being complex, and being designed. Yes, it's commonly a characteristic that in human software, complexity is an indication of poor design. And, no, not overall complexity but complexity beyond necessity. You seem to believe that complexity, in itself, is good. It isn't. And particularly not in systems that are already fairly complex.

I doubt you can quote any recognized designer that advocates for complexity simply for it's own sake. Some human made things, as a matter of necessity, are quite complex. But I doubt you'll find anyone who would argue they should be made more complex just because, well, Rube Goldberg and they could.

Are we there yet?

Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #51
Yeah ... organisms don't operate very well ... if God would just update the software ...
No one said "organisms don't operate very well".
Or anything like that.

Your strawman campaign continues.
It is profoundly dishonest.
Quote

Lolololol
idiot
Ahem.

Yes they DID say that.

Here's the whole convo which you dishonestly omitted part of ...

Quote
Also, this
Quote
Quote
The genome itself, via natural genome editing[19], generates large amounts of coherent new sequences and inserts these into DNA genomes without damaging essential protein-coding regions. This is not possible for any human-made software.
is nonsense. Software used to work like that, it turned out be be a spectacularly bad idea. We stopped doing it that way.

Quote
Hahahahahaha

Yeah ... organisms don't operate very well ... if God would just update the software ...

Lolololol
More...Quick EditQuote
If you think there is a "organisms don't operate very well" in there you haven't understood. That software working like that was a spectacularly bad idea was not because it was not functional.

Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #52
Does this have to be an Either God Or Evolution question?
Isn't it possible that evolution itself is God's design?
Why would God do things the same way we humans would? I think it is arrogant of any human to claim to understand the mind of God.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #53
Lots of chaff and flares here ...

To clear things up ... let's state things simply ...

1) ST started this whole thing by saying that "biological software" looks like it was poorly designed ... as if by a trial and error process
2) I countered by asking "how can you be qualified to judge it's quality when we are only familiar with 1.5% of it - the coding regions?"
How are you qualified to discuss the topic?
That's part of the militantly ignorant and narcissistic bits of being a militantly ignorant narcissistic DK posterboy.
Are we there yet?

  • Sea Star
  • Not an octohatter
Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #54
How does someone unironically give a thread this title?

Have you not yet realised?  Dave is doing 8-D irony. He is so incredibly ironic that no-one can see it.
We can't unsee it either!
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Today at 07:50:40 AM
Lol
Sea Star has been trolling me this whole time.

Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #55
Also ... Life is mind numbingly complex ... so ST thinks that's a sign of bad design ...

But many man made items are also quite complex ... does this mean THOSE are bad design too?
Some are. Sometimes it cannot be helped, some tasks are complex, and when the task cannot be redesigned, there is not a lot that can be done for the software that performs it.

Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #56
Does this have to be an Either God Or Evolution question?
Isn't it possible that evolution itself is God's design?
Why would God do things the same way we humans would? I think it is arrogant of any human to claim to understand the mind of God.
Well, if God made evolution, there's not a lot else left for him to do. He could just sit back and watch. Or just leave.
Also, does evolution need creating? If evolution doesn't need God to exist, what is he even for?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #57
I know for a fact that functional software can be made by people who don't understand what they are doing.
I am living proof of that!  :wave:
I have had my turn at it, and decided I should either take it seriously and learn how to do it or leave it to others.

There is a really cool bit of software called Squeak, which became Croquet and then became Open Cobalt. It's open platform/machine, extremely powerful and relatively easy to use. One of the primaries in it's development was Alan Kay. It's really quite amazing. I play with it now and then. It's really great for kids. And it's free.
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #58
How does someone unironically give a thread this title?

Have you not yet realised?  Dave is doing 8-D irony. He is so incredibly ironic that no-one can see it.
Including himself.
Are we there yet?

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #59
If evolution doesn't need God to exist, what is he even for?
You think gays are going to get to hell by themselves?
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #60
Lots of chaff and flares here ...

To clear things up ... let's state things simply ...

1) ST started this whole thing by saying that "biological software" looks like it was poorly designed ... as if by a trial and error process
2) I countered by asking "how can you be qualified to judge it's quality when we are only familiar with 1.5% of it - the coding regions?"

I still have not got an answer to this ...
We are not talking about DNA specifically, but general patterns. But if you want to talk about DNA: In DNA we find sequences that are copies of others with modifications. When we find the same in code this is evidence of an incompetent programmer. Or maybe one who didn't have the time to do it right.

So, if you must compare DNA to computer code, it looks badly designed.
But you would also be taking the analogy much too far.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #61
But you would also be taking the analogy much too far.
... which was pretty much the point of the article Hawkins quoted in the OP.

Hence the own-goal.  :cheer:
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #62
Also ... Life is mind numbingly complex ... so ST thinks that's a sign of bad design ...

But many man made items are also quite complex ... does this mean THOSE are bad design too?
Some are. Sometimes it cannot be helped, some tasks are complex, and when the task cannot be redesigned, there is not a lot that can be done for the software that performs it.
Point is, complexity can mean that the designer was smart enough to understand the complexity, or it can mean he was too stupid to reduce it to something simple.
So, life is complex, therefore God, doesn't work.

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #63
Does this have to be an Either God Or Evolution question?
Isn't it possible that evolution itself is God's design?
Why would God do things the same way we humans would? I think it is arrogant of any human to claim to understand the mind of God.


This is exactly what Theistic evolutionists do believe, and there are veritable hordes of them. That is in fact the official stance of all three of the largest Christian denominations in Canada - that God created life, including humans, via evolution. That's a very simple definition of what is a very complex bit of theology which is variously interpreted, often relative to how much the individual believer actually understands about the antiquity of the planet and the sciences of biology, evolution, geology, physics, etc.

Dave's stance, rooted in the conservative fundamentalism of the American Bible Belt, is a minority position among western Christians.

I personally know lots of Christians. Only a very few would side with Dave and the fundamentalists.

Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #64
Does this have to be an Either God Or Evolution question?
Isn't it possible that evolution itself is God's design?
Why would God do things the same way we humans would? I think it is arrogant of any human to claim to understand the mind of God.


This is exactly what Theistic evolutionists do believe, and there are veritable hordes of them. That is in fact the official stance of all three of the largest Christian denominations in Canada - that God created life, including humans, via evolution. That's a very simple definition of what is a very complex bit of theology which is variously interpreted, often relative to how much the individual believer actually understands about the antiquity of the planet and the sciences of biology, evolution, geology, physics, etc.

Dave's stance, rooted in the conservative fundamentalism of the American Bible Belt, is a minority position among western Christians.

I personally know lots of Christians. Only a very few would side with Dave and the fundamentalists.

Yeah, I guess if I were to believe  I would have to be a Theistic evolutionist.

I sort of envy people who do truly believe, as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on me or anyone else. The best I can manage is Pascal's wager, but fortunately (for me) I also think a Creator God wouldn't care if anyone believes in It or not. But now I have gone way off topic!

Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #65
Does this have to be an Either God Or Evolution question?
Isn't it possible that evolution itself is God's design?
Why would God do things the same way we humans would? I think it is arrogant of any human to claim to understand the mind of God.
Well, if God made evolution, there's not a lot else left for him to do. He could just sit back and watch. Or just leave.
Also, does evolution need creating? If evolution doesn't need God to exist, what is he even for?

Not just living things, but the entire universe is evolving, and has been since the Big Bang. We cannot explain what caused the BB and if something came from nothing. Until or unless we can, I think there is room for some people to have a belief in a Creator God. At least, I can't see how anyone can positively rule out the possibility by using any sort of logic and science, including software.

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #66
Does this have to be an Either God Or Evolution question?
Isn't it possible that evolution itself is God's design?
Why would God do things the same way we humans would? I think it is arrogant of any human to claim to understand the mind of God.
Well, if God made evolution, there's not a lot else left for him to do. He could just sit back and watch. Or just leave.
Also, does evolution need creating? If evolution doesn't need God to exist, what is he even for?

Not just living things, but the entire universe is evolving, and has been since the Big Bang. We cannot explain what caused the BB and if something came from nothing. Until or unless we can, I think there is room for some people to have a belief in a Creator God. At least, I can't see how anyone can positively rule out the possibility by using any sort of logic and science, including software.

"What Happened Before the Big Bang" is the universal God Question outside of fundamentalism.

But other questions get raised - for example, as a rule, Christians don't believe anything has a soul except humans (outside of those heretic sentimentalists who expect their dogs to go to heaven), which opens the case of the first ensouled human. At what point did two proto-humans have a child which became the evolved Adam? How tragic would it be, were heaven real, to find your parents, perhaps siblings too, soulless and not entitled to eternal life? How cruel is a god that works that way?

Not that many current versions of god aren't inherently cruel, they certainly are.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #67
But you would also be taking the analogy much too far.
... which was pretty much the point of the article Hawkins quoted in the OP.

Hence the own-goal.  :cheer:
Own goals are something else Bluffy doesn't suck at.
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #68
Does this have to be an Either God Or Evolution question?
Isn't it possible that evolution itself is God's design?
Why would God do things the same way we humans would? I think it is arrogant of any human to claim to understand the mind of God.
Well, if God made evolution, there's not a lot else left for him to do. He could just sit back and watch. Or just leave.
Also, does evolution need creating? If evolution doesn't need God to exist, what is he even for?

Not just living things, but the entire universe is evolving, and has been since the Big Bang. We cannot explain what caused the BB and if something came from nothing. Until or unless we can, I think there is room for some people to have a belief in a Creator God. At least, I can't see how anyone can positively rule out the possibility by using any sort of logic and science, including software.
The problem is not with attempting to rule the supernatural out but with people trying to rule it in. Science rules out the supernatural. Creationists try to rule it in.
Are we there yet?

  • uncool
Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #69
Hey Dave. Did you forget this post? Or are you badgering again?

I can safely say as the father of two expert bowhunting sons... That this is a poorly designed bow and arrow ... they would not be kill anything with this. WTF was the designer thinking!?



I cannot get this dang image to show
There we go ... it was an issue with my phone.

Anyway, do you see my point?
Yes, Dave. Your point is that you think we're idiots that can't think through the fact that there are differences.

We talked about one principle of programming before: a programmer documentary his code on all levels he thinks someone else will use. A programmer that doesn't is either an inconsiderate programmer, an incompetent programmer, or a hostile programmer.

God didn't document his work on most levels. So which one is he? Inconsiderate, incompetent, or hostile?

Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #70
It's thread titles like this that really illustrate the ignorance of simplistic religious views.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #71
It's thread titles like this that really illustrate the ignorance of Nazis.

  • Pingu
Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #72
Oh my God ... the stupidity ... it burns!!

Why do you keep making shit up?
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #73
Does this have to be an Either God Or Evolution question?
Isn't it possible that evolution itself is God's design?
Why would God do things the same way we humans would? I think it is arrogant of any human to claim to understand the mind of God.
Well, if God made evolution, there's not a lot else left for him to do. He could just sit back and watch. Or just leave.
Also, does evolution need creating? If evolution doesn't need God to exist, what is he even for?

That's essentially the Deist position, iirc, that god set the universe in motion and then effed off somewhere.

Re: Manmade Software is Clumsy Compared to Godmade Software
Reply #74
Why do you keep making shit up?

In this particular instance, to distract from his faceplant over the Florida school shooting. The timing's pretty obvious.