Skip to main content

TR Memescape

  • TalkRational: Don't be all aspie over this, because things like this go to shit when we let that happen.

Topic: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew? (Read 702 times) previous topic - next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
  • ksen
So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
I know, everyone already knew.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/27/15695060/sam-harris-charles-murray-race-iq-forbidden-knowledge-podcast-bell-curve

Quote
Harris's conversation with Murray was titled, tantalizingly, "Forbidden Knowledge," and in it, Harris sought to rehabilitate the conversation over race and IQ as well as open a larger debate about what can and cannot be said in today's America. Here is Harris framing the discussion:

People don't want to hear that a person's intelligence is in large measure due to his or her genes and there seems to be very little we can do environmentally to increase a person's intelligence even in childhood. It's not that the environment doesn't matter, but genes appear to be 50 to 80 percent of the story. People don't want to hear this. And they certainly don't want to hear that average IQ differs across races and ethnic groups.

Now, for better or worse, these are all facts. In fact, there is almost nothing in psychological science for which there is more evidence than these claims. About IQ, about the validity of testing for it, about its importance in the real world, about its heritability, and about its differential expression in different populations.

Again, this is what a dispassionate look at [what] decades of research suggest. Unfortunately, the controversy over The Bell Curve did not result from legitimate, good-faith criticisms of its major claims. Rather, it was the product of a politically correct moral panic that totally engulfed Murray's career and has yet to release him.

A few moments later, Harris lays out his own motivations. He admits, with some shame, that he once declined to participate in a symposium alongside Murray. And if he did that, he says, who knows how many others have quietly shunned Murray over the years?

The purpose of the podcast was to set the record straight. Because I find the dishonesty and hypocrisy and moral cowardice of Murray's critics shocking. And the fact that I was taken in by this defamation of him and effectively became part of a silent mob that was just watching what amounted to a modern witch-burning, that was intolerable to me.

Harris returns repeatedly to the idea that the controversy over Murray's race and IQ work is driven by "dishonesty and hypocrisy and moral cowardice" -- not a genuine disagreement over the underlying science or its interpretation. As he puts, "there is virtually no scientific controversy" around Murray's argument.

  • meepmeep
  • Administrator
  • zombiecat queen
Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #1
my favorite thing is when this fucking dinosaur of a social scientist charles murray goes on about single nucleotide polymorphisms as if he knows the first fucking thing about genetics

Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #2
Not everyone knows this.  Some people respect his opinions and think they are valid.  I believe those people are dumb.

Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #3
Pretty sure Bill Maher blows Harris every time he has him on his dumbass show. They're both horrible in so many ways.

Careful though, Harris might try to sue us now. :p

  • linus
Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #4
It's sad to see how some people become ever more radicalized.

  • ksen
Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #5
Careful though, Harris might try to sue us now. :p
Maybe I should have put his name in all caps.

Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #6
Whatever happened to Mark Dreher?

  • meepmeep
  • Administrator
  • zombiecat queen
Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #7
It's sad to see how some people become ever more radicalized.

It's only going to get worse. :mason:

Read a thingy the other day by Zeynep Tufekci, who is pretty great, about Youtube's algorithms with their suggested videos and autoplays and how it basically just leads you to more and more extreme, radicalized content: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/10/opinion/sunday/youtube-politics-radical.html

Educated, generally smart people think they're immune to this shit, but no one is. Which is why everyone should pay attention to what they're consuming and stop thinking that your clever brain will successfully identify bullshit all the time and keep you from falling into a rabbit hole.

Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #8
Sounds like your IQ just isn't high enough to prevent that, aren't you brownish?

  • meepmeep
  • Administrator
  • zombiecat queen
Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #9
Sounds like your IQ just isn't high enough to prevent that, aren't you brownish?

Yeah, I'm not of the right genetic stock. My kind of whiteness comes from the inferior southern Europeans and is tainted by the Moors, and also I have a uterus, so that's another couple points knocked off there. If I reproduce, it'll only contribute to dysgenesis. :sadcheer:

  • el jefe
  • asleep till 2020 or 2024
Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #10
it's also true that average IQs of the general population, and of every specific racial grouping, have risen by a few points per decade throughout the history of IQ testing, for a cumulative total of like 30 points.  and we don't know what is causing that, but it pretty much has to be environmental.  compare that 30 points with the current racial average gap which is like 7 points, and it seems a little premature to say the blacks are doomed to be dumb by their genes.

one corollary that people like Murray try to sell is that, because (as they estimate it) IQ is mostly genetic, there's no point trying to close the racial gap.  well, the gap has been cut in half since they first said that in the late 60s.  and the overall rise in everyone's IQs is such that the average African American today is about a standard deviation higher than the average white american from 60s.  so no, it's not pointless to try to boost their IQs.

also also, all the "race realist" IQ research is funded by something called the pioneer institute, which is more or less openly white supremacist and supports things like eugenics.

Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #11
Hmm it seems that by using pure reason and geometric logic, we can conclude that facts don't care about your snowflake feelings

  • nesb
Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #12
Quote from: el jefe
it's also true that average IQs of the general population, and of every specific racial grouping, have risen by a few points per decade throughout the history of IQ testing, for a cumulative total of like 30 points.  and we don't know what is causing that, but it pretty much has to be environmental.  compare that 30 points with the current racial average gap which is like 7 points, and it seems a little premature to say the blacks are doomed to be dumb by their genes.

Yeah, the article Ksen posted makes that exact point, and it doesn't seem like Harris or Murray have an answer to it. They just believe what they want to believe, and that's kinda unsettling.

Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #13
I feel bad for all those internet atheists who used to scream, "ISLAM IS NOT A RACE," now that their Lord and Saviour has laid all his cards on the table

  • el jefe
  • asleep till 2020 or 2024
Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #14
Quote from: el jefe
it's also true that average IQs of the general population, and of every specific racial grouping, have risen by a few points per decade throughout the history of IQ testing, for a cumulative total of like 30 points.  and we don't know what is causing that, but it pretty much has to be environmental.  compare that 30 points with the current racial average gap which is like 7 points, and it seems a little premature to say the blacks are doomed to be dumb by their genes.

Yeah, the article Ksen posted makes that exact point, and it doesn't seem like Harris or Murray have an answer to it. They just believe what they want to believe, and that's kinda unsettling.
the most generous interpretation I have for these people is that they're drawn to the "red pill" idea that there's an uncomfortable truth staring us in the face and we just don't want to look at it because feelings.  it's a self-gratifying feeling familiar to any atheist, and maybe harris sees the reaction to murray et al. as similar to the emotionally-loaded special-pleading he's been battling for years in the context of religion.  because he's used hammers so much, he thinks everything is a nail.

what he doesn't get is that emotional outrage is not the only reason people are objecting to his "uncomfortable truth".  it's also not a truth.

  • el jefe
  • asleep till 2020 or 2024
Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #15
as a general point, separate from race and all that, the flynn effect is possibly the most hopeful fact I'm aware of

  • uncool
Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #16
as a general point, separate from race and all that, the flynn effect is possibly the most hopeful fact I'm aware of
Just remember to temper it by Goodhart's law.

Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #17
YouTube is throwing me down the Thunderfo0t rabbit hole. Or at least it wants me too. 

Dude, there's a reason I unsubscribed. 
Why do I bother?

Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #18
Whatever happened to Mark Dreher?
Looks like his subreddit has been inactive for three years.   https://www.reddit.com/r/MarkDreher/

While you were getting your PhD in virology, I got my PhD in truth detection. :wave:  Dave Hawkins

  • ksen
Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #19
lso I have a uterus

Dear god, you poor thing. How do you cope?

  • ksen
Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #20
Weird how people that are for sure convinced that a genetic racial IQ gap exists for really real in real life also believe that the gender wage gap is pure hookum.

Nah, I'm kidding . . . that's not weird at all.

Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #21
Whatever happened to Mark Dreher?
Looks like his subreddit has been inactive for three years.   https://www.reddit.com/r/MarkDreher/



So he finally ascended to heaven

  • uncool
Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #22
Weird how people that are for sure convinced that a genetic racial IQ gap exists for really real in real life also believe that the gender wage gap is pure hookum.

Nah, I'm kidding . . . that's not weird at all.
Err. That's...entirely consistent?

Most of them don't think the gender wage gap doesn't exist. They think instead that it's explained by a bunch of factors that are, eventually, based on biology. At least, the semi-competent ones do.

There's some aspect where they think the wage gap is exaggerated, but from what I've seen, very few of them would say it simply doesn't exist.

  • ksen
Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #23
uhhh

Re: So Sam Harris is a racist asshole . . . who knew?
Reply #24
beep boop