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Messages - VoxRat

And I should have written my post  "agree that Ruddiman says..."

Because obviously I'm not expert enough to be able to evaluate whether he's correct or not.

 but ruddiman is not the first writer to say this sort of thing so I think he's probably correct.
But this is exactly the acceptance because of consensus/consilience that you sneered at as "lemming"-like upthread.

On another side note, Hawkins made up the bit about

Significant deforestation began happening about 8000 BC according to Ruddiman and others
... at least as far as North Africa is concerned.
OK let me see if I've got your story straight ... from Wikipedia "Neolithic Subpluvial" article ...
  <  clip buffoonery  >
Try again without the gratuitous snark / bravado
Rogers' employer (The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette) apparently didn't find that (and similarly Trump-unfriendly) cartoons amusing.

I Was Fired for Making Fun of Trump

Nor is Persia a synonym for Iran.
Yeah, actually it is.
Iran (Persian: ایران‎ Irān [ʔiːˈɾɒːn] (About this sound listen)), also known as Persia[10] (/ˈpɜːrʒə/),[11] officially the Islamic Republic of Iran

But "The Sahara" is still NOT a synonym for "North Africa".

There should be a little picture of Dave Hawkins in the dictionary entry for "equivocation".
So you now agree that the impact humans have made on North Africa is indeed negative?
"Now" ?

Has anyone here denied that humans have had a negative impact on the environment in North Africa?

That is a very different proposition from "MANKIND CREATED THE SAHARA DESERT" 
There are many reasons to believe that mankind created the Sahara Desert.

1) Paul Ehrlich said so
Bullshit appeal to (outdated) authority. Remember how he had no references supporting that assertion? Remember what happened when you emailed him to ask for any such support?
2) the FAO says so
Bullshit appeal to (outdated) authority.
3) Ruddiman debunks the myth of orbital control of CO2 in the past 8000 years
Irrelevant to the question of Sahara wet/dry cycles.
4) We're seeing more info on how deforestation and overgrazing cause drought
Irrelevant to the question of Sahara wet/dry cycles.

People like you are dangerous to our planet because you deflect people's attention away from the true problem which is deforestation and unsustainable agriculture over the past 5000 years or so.
I love how when Hawkins's "argument" crashes and burns, he wraps himself in his (extremely well-worn) Cloak of Self-Righteousness and lashes out at the forces of evil preventing him from Saving the Planet.

What "people"'s attention is being "deflected" from what, by whom?  :dunno: 
No one here has denied that deforestation is a problem.
No one here has suggested that humans have not* had a negative impact on the environment for millennia (except you, of course, with your Noble Savage myths)
No one here is defending agribusiness practices (except you, of course, with your unwavering support of the pro-Dow, pro-Monsanto Bayer Trump administration)

ETA:  fixed accidental omission of 'not'
I have even given you a modern example of this process happening over the past 500 years with the Llano Estacado and you just dismiss it.
Who "just dismissed" what?  :dunno:

Do you think that West Texas is degraded land?
I have never been there, so I have to rely on the accounts of others.
According to the Texas Parks & Wildlife Department, there does seem to be significant change (not for the better) since "Anglo settlement".

They seem to think that grazing too many cattle (and sheep and goats) is to blame.

If  there is any evidence that vast herds of tightly bunched herbivores covered this land before Anglo settlement, I haven't run across it.
Oard is an idiot if he thinks this is a "problem" that nobody has thought about.
Oard is a con man whose job is to provide pseudoscience excuses for why biblical literalism doesn't match reality. He knows his target audience - gullible tools like Hawkins - is oblivious to details like this.

Here's how Hawkins started out this "argument":
Let's spend some time getting rid of this ridiculous idea that "The Sahara Desert is Natural" ... shall we?

Alright ... you guys only accept Octohatter stuff ...

But now his  "argument"  has devolved to:

 Creationist (with no credibility outside YEC circles) Michael Oard says the standard science explanation of Sahara dry/wet cycles involves Milankovitch cycles.

Oard rejects Milankovitch theory because reasons.


It's like a how-to manual on how not to do logic.

And, btw, pretty ironic that Hawkins introduces this con job with a jeer-leading swipe at "Mainstream (lemming) scientists"
So what this tells you is that the black shaded portions used to be forested, but then they were deforested by man and now a lot of them are pure desert, such as the northern part of Africa.
So what  ^ this ^ tells ME is that you haven't a molecule of support for your contention that the Sahara Desert was man-made.
IIRC, "head rolling" means "going to jail".

So there's Trump campaign chair Paul Manafort.

BEFORE his trial.

What is this? The Soviet Union?
yes and no

quick rundown of what happend in court

maniforts lawyers asked for a do not contact list and that he return to house arrest

judge assumed that the list would be huge and he would contact potential others not on the list yet

prosecutors gave examples of how he was contacting poeple he knew would be witnesses

judge decided he would wait in prison for his trial to prevent any method to contact other potential witnesses

manifort was escorted out, bailiff returned to his wife with maniforts wallet, tie and belt
Why should he not be allowed to contact other Witnesses?
Again I ask ...
Again I  :facepalm:
And who better to explore that question than an internet blowhard with zero education, experience or credibility in genetics or any field even tangentially related to it?
Who are these "neo-Darwinians" who [think] that?  :dunno:
In any case the Llano estacado used to be teeming with bison herds and other life and now it is mostly dead like Westley in The Princess Bride, kept alive only by Center pivot irrigation but that too will soon fail  according to this article ...
Cows can't replace irrigation. Stop the irrigation and let Nature do her thing.
Nope.  As weird as it sounds, properly managed cows are the only thing that will save areas like that.
Sahara Desert Greening Due to Climate Change?
In the eastern Sahara area of southwestern Egypt and northern Sudan, new trees--such as acacias--are flourishing, according to Stefan Kröpelin, a climate scientist at the University of Cologne's Africa Research Unit in Germany.

"Shrubs are coming up and growing into big shrubs. This is completely different from having a bit more tiny grass," said Kröpelin, who has studied the region for two decades.

In 2008 Kröpelin--not involved in the new satellite research--visited Western Sahara, a disputed territory controlled by Morocco.

"The nomads there told me there was never as much rainfall as in the past few years," Kröpelin said. "They have never seen so much grazing land."

"Before, there was not a single scorpion, not a single blade of grass," he said.

"Now you have people grazing their camels in areas which may not have been used for hundreds or even thousands of years. You see birds, ostriches, gazelles coming back, even sorts of amphibians coming back," he said.

"The trend has continued for more than 20 years. It is indisputable."

Hey Dave! :wave:  

Can you list for us the HMG projects in the Sahara that have brought about this remarkable transformation?
Hillary threatened to Vince Foster the judge?
Dave, at this point, you might as well go ahead and say it. "I don't give a damn if Trump or his campaign colluded with Russians! I don't care if Trump obstructed justice! He's MY prez and he does things I LIKE and I want him to keep doing it! Throw everyone ELSE in jail!"
Also, let's go ahead and execute them.
By hanging.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to get back to the main foci of my life:

Let's spend some time getting rid of this ridiculous idea that "The Sahara Desert is Natural" ... shall we?
This project seems to be going really well so far!  :thumbsup:
Below I have posted ...
... a bunch of stuff that fails to support your contention that the Sahara Desert was man made.
Anything else?
To be honest, I'd prefer him to be trying to justify the havoc being wreaked on asylum seeking families in his Heads Rolling thread. He seems pretty committed to silence there.
Probably a wise choice, in light of the spectacular cluelessness revealed in his just now discovering the whole concept of bail and pre-trial incarceration.