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  • Talk Rational: Refugees from Internet Infidels, but still unaware they are free.

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Messages - Sea Star

2
I can't even see how a global flood even starts to make sense as an explanation for geology, and I honestly don't think Dave does either. He just believes it does.
And the resulting subconscious incoherence manifests as hostile, pathetic posturing.
3
Yes Peez I know. You are like that Junior High kid I told about who was laughing at the joke he didn't understand.
Sometimes I get the impression that the bullied kid trying to fit in was you, Dave.
4
The emerging picture from actual evidence as opposed to Alice in Wonderland stories is that...

1. There was a global flood
2. Which made things very wet indeed
3. Including North Africa
4. When things dried out the land greened up and there were many  lakes and rivers across what is now the Sahara Desert
5. Empires flourished
6. They probably destroyed their land just like we are doing today.
7. Ergo ... Sahara desert
8. As more and more people like Paul Ehrlich are now saying
This is not preaching by the way ... it's an outline of my hypothesis ...

Preaching is different.
Present evidence for your first assumption. (Hint - there isn't any)
5
The emerging picture from actual evidence as opposed to Alice in Wonderland stories is that...

1. There was a global flood
2. Which made things very wet indeed
3. Including North Africa
4. When things dried out the land greened up and there were many  lakes and rivers across what is now the Sahara Desert
5. Empires flourished
6. They probably destroyed their land just like we are doing today.
7. Ergo ... Sahara desert
8. As more and more people like Paul Ehrlich are now saying
Preaching your fantasy. Again.

Eta. Aaand ninja'd.
6
I'm not an octohatter, but it was not painful or anything to read the article. As I understood it, it does not favor Dave's interpretation.
7
PoS-level truth detection in action, right there.
8
How something can appear to have effects when it actually doesn't:
Two personal illustrations of practices which, it turns out, have no bearing on results:

My mother always pot-roasted a specific cut of beef by first cutting off a particular section and wrapping it around the main portion. Finally, 30 or so years after she began doing it, she asked her mother, from whom she'd copied the trick, why. Because, my grandmother explained, that cut of meat wouldn't fit nicely in the pot she cooked it in without rearranging it. My mother's pot was larger. There was no need at all.

I fold my towels a certain way, automatically, the same way my mother always did. One day I noticed she'd changed the way she folded hers. Because she'd changed cupboards: towels fit better folded in thirds in her narrow old cupboard. They didn't in the new one.

The roast got cooked, the towels folded. But there were steps that had no necessary effect on outcome.
Heavy objects appear to fall faster than light objects.
Well, naturally, lighter objects are floatier. Hence heavier objects are less floaty.
That's a true fact!
9
"Gratuitous preaching."

Which will one day hopefully wake you up enough to pull your head out of your ass.
Not very likely.

You're the one with your head wedged firmly up your own ass, afraid to pull it out for fear of losing your shit.

But I'm glad you admit it's preaching. The first step to solving a problem is identifying and admitting it. Maybe there is hope for you.
10
I won't try to say that all of Savory's marketing materials are perfect.  But you're wrong to flush this guy down the commode for lack of perfection. 
It's not lack of perfection.  It's flat-out dishonesty.  And not the only example of such.

It also makes no sense. It's quite true that properly managed rotational grazing (sans all the stomping woo) has been a wide-spread good farming practice for many decades, better than letting your cows graze everything down over your entire pasture land. Surely Savory could have obtained properly dated comparative photos from ranches using his methods where previously they had not been practicing rotational grazing and those photos could show a dramatic improvement in the pastures.

As I've said before, my one grandfather was a successful dairy farmer who did practice rotational grazing from the 1920s to the late 1950s. His pastures looked great. What hasn't forested over still looks great, and has supported small herds of Highland cattle several times in recent years (also rotationally grazed). My other grandfather absolutely sucked at dairy farming and had worse land to begin with. Probably out of initial desperation to prevent his cows from starving, he never was able/willing to leave any pasture cow-free long enough for the grass to recover on the rocky steep slopes he had to work with. His son made some effort to remedy things, partly by eliminating the one large field they used to grow cash crops and letting it go to pasture, and reducing the herd, but he got tired of subsistence farming pretty quickly and went to work for the government.

Just observing and photographing and documenting two farms like that, and documenting improvements after switching, would be much better propaganda for Savory. It's as if he is so caught up in being famous and praised that he doesn't see any need to show his work.
Of course it's true that savory didn't invent rotational grazing. Savory was actually heavily inspired by Andre Voisin and gives him credit regularly. I don't know where your successful grandfather got the idea for rotational grazing but it probably was not savory. He is probably in a non brittle area so any old type of rotational grazing in those areas is better than nothing as Savory points out.

Savory's great insight involve brittle areas which are the most critical for saving our planet.  And the brilliant counterintuitive conclusion that Savory reached after decades of trial and error was that more cattle, not less, managed properly is THE only way to save these areas. 

We all realize this is a bold claim and Savory freely admits it in his Ted Talk, calling it The Unthinkable.

But it appears to be correct as evidenced by the growing number of savory hubs proliferating  in brittle areas all over the world. These people are not selling snake oil. They are literally saving their ranches and feeding their communities, instead of starving to death.

Watch the documentary I linked. Listen to the interviews of the African community members whose lives have been changed. These people were formerly only able to feed their families year-round with outside food Aid. Thanks to Allan savory, they no longer need outside food Aid.
Gratuitous preaching.
11
"Yes, since you apparently want to be public with this,"

Why wouldn't I want it to be public? I have nothing to hide.

I have committed the rest of my life to the betterment of humanity and the betterment of this planet which supports Humanity. Not from an ivory Tower, getting paid a fat salary by some think tank or a big university but from the middle of a goat pasture, on my own dime, getting my hands dirty every day in more ways than one. This morning I was scrubbing my 96 year old dad's poop off the carpet. Not easy work I can assure you, but honorable work because it shows honor and respect To my father.

Who's with me?


Masturbatory preaching.
12
But she won't. So ...

We're left with what Walter Haugen told us ... that he can get 2.1 million food calories per acre doing vegetable gardening, but I was never able to determine his inputs. 

Being a good scientific skeptic, I just cut this figure in half for now until someone proves me wrong. 

So I'm using 1 million food calories per acre for veggie gardening.  Plus tons of work according to Walter.

How about animal foods?  Well there's not much data out there so all I can do is make educated guesses.  The best forage production I've heard of is Joel Salatin's ... his "400 cow day" grass which implies about 12,000 of forage production per acre per year.

If we could maintain one smaller framed dairy cow on this type pasture, we would get at least 400 gallons of milk per year which is 1 million food calories.

So it appears to me that Pingu is wrong.
You have no reality-based idea of the hours required for sanitary dairy production,  and have given no regard to processing for storage or food items other than liquid milk.
So it appears to me Dave is wrong.
13
If you guys have ever watched Shark Tank much, you know that investors always want to invest in small amounts of success, serving as amplifiers to turn small success into greater success.  But the key is having a proven track record of success on a small scale.
A proven track record would require, um, records. Just sayin'.
14
They still burn slash piles around here. They do cover them quickly so they seep smoke for a while. Part of the Autumn scenery mixed in the fog.

Slash only gets burned here if it's someone clearing land, usually for a housing development.

I think humidity, keeping the fuel damp, likely plays a part in creating 'incidental' biochar, which would perhaps suggest a way it could have been discovered - the high humidity and frequent rainfall might create conditions where biochar resulted from fires. Then all you need are keen observers putting two and two together.
I'll go find a slash pile to dig through, see what I find. I'll try not to steal any cool native plants 😉
15
They still burn slash piles around here. They do cover them quickly so they seep smoke for a while. Part of the Autumn scenery mixed in the fog.
16
Random capitalization seems to be another thing Hawkins has in common with his hero.
It's my phone that does that.
My old phone did that for a while before it died.
18
In short your brains are addled from years and years of mass propaganda by our broken educational system but there's hope for you because you are a full, card-carrying member of the human species (not a less evolved member like they thought Ota Benga was) so your brain can be fixed!
Way to criticize the issue, Dave!
19
The whole fucking enchilada with HMG is to mimic Nature's designs, a great example of which is found in the rainforest.

Why the fuck do you think HMG ranchers don't have to apply bagged fertilizers to make their pastures super productive, so productive that they can support two and three times the conventional stocking rates?

It's because they are following Nature's designs, a great example of which can be found in the rainforest.

Good Lord, you people are so brainwashed it's pathetic!
Nature's design for rainforests is for them to be forest, Dave, not pasture. Cutting down the trees to convert rainforest to pasture is not in any way mimicking nature's design.
it is really mind-blowing that you guys cannot connect the dots with this stuff. I guess it comes down to the brainwashing. The fertilizer sales establishment must be extremely powerful indeed.
It's your mind that's blown. You see dots that aren't there, or that you've drawn in with a dull crayon. Morton's demon must be extremely powerful indeed
20
Most octohatters only know of one class of plant nutrients. The kind that you can sell in a bag.
Again, your jealousy prompts infantile insults. Again, pathetically transparent.
21
Here's a nice dumbed down version of some of the key essentials of what Dr. Pat Richardson is saying ...

Quote
Living Soil-Why We Want to Be Outnumbered
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Plant roots bring up mineral nutrients above ground, making vegetation, but they do not accomplish this by themselves. They actually need livestock to cycle minerals.
LOL. Nobody tell the hostas in my garden. I'm afraid they'll stop growing once they realize I haven't had any cattle eat and trample them.

Of course that quote doesn't actually mean what it says...

Quote
There are livestock of all kinds--microfauna (microscopic animals, fungi, and bacteria), mesofauna (macroscopic soil invertebrates such as earthworms and nemotodes), and megafauna (large animals).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

https://holisticmanagement.org/in_practice/living-soil-why-we-want-to-be-outnumbered/
Wow! Dave isn't the only one who makes up his own definitions of words, huh?
Hostas you want to mob graze with slugs.
22
Criticizing ideas
"I really wish some of you people would pull your heads out of your butts before you post.  So tiresome to have to wipe feces off my screen constantly"
What idea is being criticized here?
I forget.  There is a constant barrage of stupid ideas at this place.
Well then you're not criticizing any idea. You are insulting posters. Quit that.
23
Criticizing ideas
"I really wish some of you people would pull your heads out of your butts before you post.  So tiresome to have to wipe feces off my screen constantly"
What idea is being criticized here?
24
"nowhere near as good"

Can you quantify that? Demonstrate it in some way?
Yes of course. All the metrics that Testy was pointing out in that paper he posted. All that's been measured by numerous practitioners.
Can you link to those measurements by those numerous practitioners, so we can examine it?
No. Waste of time with this crowd. You can't fix stupid.
Transparent dodge.
25
I think you're wrong but wow. You sure did get a following on that post!
''Following''. No.
Agreement, pleased to see the issues addressed so eloquently with obvious knowledge of the details, props for all Faid has done. Not blind cheering.

You're projecting your need for a hero or someone to blindly follow onto us.