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Topic: Ben wants to talk about rape (Read 866 times) previous topic - next topic

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Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #25
Dave, let me ask you: if you give someone something out of love, or do something to please them out of love, what does it COST you?
Cost varies.  Usually a lot. The more the better.

Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #26
I get it alright..
I don't think you do, but I would genuinely like for you to prove me wrong here. Can you explain the point I was making in your own words?

  • uncool
Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #27
Dave is using a truly godawfully stupid metaphor here, but the metaphor is clear.
Dave, let me ask you: if you give someone something out of love, or do something to please them out of love, what does it COST you?
The cost usually comes in what is put into that love. The time and effort it takes to maintain that love. Of course, by this metaphor, even rape isn't "free". Nothing is the only thing that is free, with this metaphor.

The metaphor is the same as the one used in "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch." If you are getting something, it comes from somewhere, and if someone is giving it to you, they are doing so for a reason that cam be traced back to you eventually. Of course, this entirely transactional view of humanity is deeply cynical and all but requires viewing human beings as slot machines: you put something in, maybe you get something out. This is especially true when you lack any understanding of emergent properties - it is possible to see this view with the understanding that social behavior can emerge from this.

  • JonF
Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #28
Well Ben ... you made the following claim ...

Quote
Really, and this might be the most pathetic part of it, the whole thing was just a shiny distraction from a conversation about his views on actual rape that he was too chickenshit to have. 

Ben, I have never been "too Chickenshit" to have a convo on any topic.
Lake K.
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #29
Pingu ... it's not surprising to me that your views of what I actually think about sex are just as out of touch with reality as many of your other misconceptions about what I think.

*proceeds to confirm everything Pingu said about what he thinks*

  • Pingu
Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #30
Dave, let me ask you: if you give someone something out of love, or do something to please them out of love, what does it COST you?
Cost varies.  Usually a lot. The more the better.

OK so that is the problem.  Good to know.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #31
Dave is using a truly godawfully stupid metaphor here, but the metaphor is clear.
Dave, let me ask you: if you give someone something out of love, or do something to please them out of love, what does it COST you?
The cost usually comes in what is put into that love. The time and effort it takes to maintain that love. Of course, by this metaphor, even rape isn't "free". Nothing is the only thing that is free, with this metaphor.

The metaphor is the same as the one used in "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch." If you are getting something, it comes from somewhere, and if someone is giving it to you, they are doing so for a reason that cam be traced back to you eventually. Of course, this entirely transactional view of humanity is deeply cynical and all but requires viewing human beings as slot machines: you put something in, maybe you get something out. This is especially true when you lack any understanding of emergent properties - it is possible to see this view with the understanding that social behavior can emerge from this.
The part you're missing is that I - and most likely everyone here - gives in many cases expecting nothing in return. Which is something we could all do more.

  • uncool
Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #32
Dave is using a truly godawfully stupid metaphor here, but the metaphor is clear.
Dave, let me ask you: if you give someone something out of love, or do something to please them out of love, what does it COST you?
The cost usually comes in what is put into that love. The time and effort it takes to maintain that love. Of course, by this metaphor, even rape isn't "free". Nothing is the only thing that is free, with this metaphor.

The metaphor is the same as the one used in "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch." If you are getting something, it comes from somewhere, and if someone is giving it to you, they are doing so for a reason that cam be traced back to you eventually. Of course, this entirely transactional view of humanity is deeply cynical and all but requires viewing human beings as slot machines: you put something in, maybe you get something out. This is especially true when you lack any understanding of emergent properties - it is possible to see this view with the understanding that social behavior can emerge from this.
The part you're missing is that I - and most likely everyone here - gives in many cases expecting nothing in return. Which is something we could all do more.
If you think you do so without expecting anything in return, you haven't thought this metaphor through.

Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #33
How about "Team NEO Darwin"?

EDIT: Or maybe just "Team 2" in view of the first way, the second way, and the Third Way. I think my Android phone likes the third way because it capitalized it. Except it didn't in this sentence. Weird.



How about the more accurate "Reality Based Community".

Or, RBC for short.
A walk through the ocean of most mens souls would scarcely get your feet wet.

  • Faid
Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #34
Is this where we talk about dave's initial claims about actual sex and actual rape (as opposed to silly metaphors about the "land")?

Good.

But the context of my comment was sex.  Sex is not free nor should it be.  Or if it is, you shouldn't be having it. I think a better name for "free sex" might be "rape."
What the actual fuck. What a bunch of rapists during the sixties, am I right?
To have good sex there must be give and take.  In an ideal situation, each partner strives to meet the other's needs.  This creates emotional closeness which often leads to physical desire.
Um, dave, In sex, you begin with physical desire. You don't "often" end up with it later.

I honestly have no clue what your comment is supposed to mean. Honestly. Is it "If I meet her needs she'lll eventually want to have sex with me"? Or is it "If I try to 'meet her needs' during sex she'll eventually find me attractive"?

I don't know which is worse, frankly. But I know that both are pretty much NOT antithetical to "rape".
If one partner is never trying to meet the other's needs - regardless of what form the need takes - then you are into the "free sex / rape" situation which is not good.
I think your fundamental, well, absurdity in that comment is that you see "sex" as something that happens to one person.

It's not. It takes two. At least.

Sex is not (or SHOULD not) be a form of service one person (doesn't matter who) offers and the other receives. But you seem to see it that way, and that leads you to absurdities like "free sex is rape".
Quote
Also many men pay A LOT but never get any sex so they become frustrated.
Gee, I wonder why. Could it be because their approach of "sleep with me, I buy you stuff" is flawed?
Quote
Often it's their own fault but they don't know what to do so they feel trapped and thus seek gratification outside the marriage.  Women also often feel like they "pay" for years and get nothing in return so they too feel trapped.  Prostitution seems to me to be a subset of the above where the financial need is often acute.
Wow.

No dave. Prostitution is not a "subset" of what essentially is a type of failed relationship.

Do you really not see that, in effect, you've just described the old "All women are whores, It's just that some are more desperate" BS?  
Quote
The bad part about prostitution seems to me to be exploitation / mistreatment of young women which does not have to be the case.
Indeed. But you don't seem to realize that the exploitation and mistreatment usually begins with making women follow that path.
Quote
  There are plenty of women out there who like to play and get paid well for it but who don't want a traditional relationship for whatever reason. 
Sigh.

Sure dave. And you were lucky enough to only meet that type, right? ::)

Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • Pingu
Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #35
Dave is using a truly godawfully stupid metaphor here, but the metaphor is clear.
Dave, let me ask you: if you give someone something out of love, or do something to please them out of love, what does it COST you?
The cost usually comes in what is put into that love. The time and effort it takes to maintain that love. Of course, by this metaphor, even rape isn't "free". Nothing is the only thing that is free, with this metaphor.

The metaphor is the same as the one used in "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch." If you are getting something, it comes from somewhere, and if someone is giving it to you, they are doing so for a reason that cam be traced back to you eventually. Of course, this entirely transactional view of humanity is deeply cynical and all but requires viewing human beings as slot machines: you put something in, maybe you get something out. This is especially true when you lack any understanding of emergent properties - it is possible to see this view with the understanding that social behavior can emerge from this.

It's a view that appears to see everything as a zero-sum game.

Most people who love other people don't even think in terms of "what's in it for me and what will I have to give for it in return?" The giving itself is its own motivation.

The reason so many of us had such a visceral reaction to Dave's "rape is free sex" expression is because it is predicated on the idea that sex is something you either have to give away in return for something, or receive in return for something.

Quite apart from the repulsive idea that rape is about "taking" some"thing" anyway.  Rape isn't theft, it's violence. 
  • Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 07:47:43 AM by Pingu
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • Pingu
Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #36
Also, rape isn't about desire. It's about domination.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • Faid
Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #37
Pingu ... it's not surprising to me that your views of what I actually think about sex are just as out of touch with reality as many of your other misconceptions about what I think.

RAPE is theft. Among other things. Not sure why you cannot see that. It's pretty obvious.

The rapist is forcibly stealing something from a victim. So one way to look at it is that he is attempting to gain personal gratification without going through the proper channels and paying the proper price ... IE establishing a genuine love connection with the woman.

In other words he is trying to get sexual gratification for free. But sexual gratification cannot legitimately be obtained for free.

Now do you understand?
In other news, beating someone up is "theft" because they are "stealing" their health and stamina. Murdering someone is "theft" because they are "stealing" their life. And so on.

Can you for once in your life go beyond stupid analogies?

In rape, the "obtaining sexual gratification", "free" or not, is hardly the issue. It's what the violator DOES to "obtain" it. THAT is the crime. THAT is the horrendously "illegitimate" part of the heinous act.

Your absurd wording makes it sound like you think the rapist essentially cheats the victim into providing them a sexual 'service' with no reciprocation. Do you SERIOUSLY think that, or are you confused?
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • Faid
Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #38
"In contrast, sex between two consenting partners does not involve anyone paying for anything."

So you think that one partner can just completely ignore the others needs and just focus on their own gratification?
What kind of weird non-sequitur is that?
Quote

I'm pretty sure you don't really think that.
Duh.

Quote
I think what's going on is you are retreating into your default which is to mindlessly cheer for your Team Darwin teammate.
Right. When confused, just babble something about Darwin. That will work.

Not.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • Pingu
Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #39
Pingu ... it's not surprising to me that your views of what I actually think about sex are just as out of touch with reality as many of your other misconceptions about what I think.

RAPE is theft. Among other things. Not sure why you cannot see that. It's pretty obvious.

The rapist is forcibly stealing something from a victim. So one way to look at it is that he is attempting to gain personal gratification without going through the proper channels and paying the proper price ... IE establishing a genuine love connection with the woman.

In other words he is trying to get sexual gratification for free. But sexual gratification cannot legitimately be obtained for free.

Now do you understand?
In other news, beating someone up is "theft" because they are "stealing" their health and stamina. Murdering someone is "theft" because they are "stealing" their life. And so on.

Can you for once in your life go beyond stupid analogies?

In rape, the "obtaining sexual gratification", "free" or not, is hardly the issue. It's what the violator DOES to "obtain" it. THAT is the crime. THAT is the horrendously "illegitimate" part of the heinous act.

Your absurd wording makes it sound like you think the rapist essentially cheats the victim into providing them a sexual 'service' with no reciprocation. Do you SERIOUSLY think that, or are you confused?

Exactly.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • Faid
Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #40
How about "Team NEO Darwin"?

EDIT: Or maybe just "Team 2" in view of the first way, the second way, and the Third Way. I think my Android phone likes the third way because it capitalized it. Except it didn't in this sentence. Weird.


Try Team Not-Dave. It will be much more akin to your mentality.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • Faid
Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #41
Dave, let me ask you: if you give someone something out of love, or do something to please them out of love, what does it COST you?
Cost varies.  Usually a lot. The more the better.
Wow.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #42
Dave, let me ask you: if you give someone something out of love, or do something to please them out of love, what does it COST you?
Cost varies.  Usually a lot. The more the better.
Wow.
Well you know...
God so loved the world he gave his only-begotten son.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • Faid
Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #43
Dave is using a truly godawfully stupid metaphor here, but the metaphor is clear.
Dave, let me ask you: if you give someone something out of love, or do something to please them out of love, what does it COST you?
The cost usually comes in what is put into that love. The time and effort it takes to maintain that love. Of course, by this metaphor, even rape isn't "free". Nothing is the only thing that is free, with this metaphor.

The metaphor is the same as the one used in "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch." If you are getting something, it comes from somewhere, and if someone is giving it to you, they are doing so for a reason that cam be traced back to you eventually. Of course, this entirely transactional view of humanity is deeply cynical and all but requires viewing human beings as slot machines: you put something in, maybe you get something out. This is especially true when you lack any understanding of emergent properties - it is possible to see this view with the understanding that social behavior can emerge from this.
The part you're missing is that I - and most likely everyone here - gives in many cases expecting nothing in return. Which is something we could all do more.
So you're giving something to someone for free? OMG dave you're being raped!
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #44
Pingu ... it's not surprising to me that your views of what I actually think about sex are just as out of touch with reality as many of your other misconceptions about what I think.

RAPE is theft. Among other things. Not sure why you cannot see that. It's pretty obvious.

The rapist is forcibly stealing something from a victim. So one way to look at it is that he is attempting to gain personal gratification without going through the proper channels and paying the proper price ... IE establishing a genuine love connection with the woman.

In other words he is trying to get sexual gratification for free. But sexual gratification cannot legitimately be obtained for free.

Now do you understand?
In other news, beating someone up is "theft" because they are "stealing" their health and stamina. Murdering someone is "theft" because they are "stealing" their life. And so on.

Can you for once in your life go beyond stupid analogies?

In rape, the "obtaining sexual gratification", "free" or not, is hardly the issue. It's what the violator DOES to "obtain" it. THAT is the crime. THAT is the horrendously "illegitimate" part of the heinous act.

Your absurd wording makes it sound like you think the rapist essentially cheats the victim into providing them a sexual 'service' with no reciprocation. Do you SERIOUSLY think that, or are you confused?

Exactly.
Holy shit.

Galactic facepalm.

The mindfuckery is deep.

Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #45
It's no wonder that you guys believe that copying errors created the biosphere.

It really is no wonder.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #46
What's deep is the content-free bluster in the absence of an actual response.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #47
It's no wonder that you guys believe that copying errors created the biosphere.
It's also no wonder why you keep repeating this moronic lie every time you're cornered.
No matter how often it's explained to you that no one thinks that.
And no matter how remotely it's (not) related to whatever the subject at hand.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • uncool
Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #48
"In contrast, sex between two consenting partners does not involve anyone paying for anything."

So you think that one partner can just completely ignore the others needs and just focus on their own gratification?

I'm pretty sure you don't really think that.

I think what's going on is you are retreating into your default which is to mindlessly cheer for your Team Darwin teammate.
If the other partner consents to that, yes, I do think that is fine.

(Please note that consent is a thorny issue, though)

  • Faid
Re: Ben wants to talk about rape
Reply #49
It's no wonder that you guys believe that copying errors created the biosphere.

It really is no wonder.
Your pathetic bluff is obvious.

Show where our assessment of your words is incorrect.

It should be trivially easy, if you're not bluffing.

What was that about "cowards" again?
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.