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  • I read your posts. I read every post on Tr. You would be surprised how often someone lets it slip where they live or who their loved ones are.

Topic: Memorial Day (Read 2074 times) previous topic - next topic

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Re: Memorial Day
Reply #25
The kind of "love" that incorporates rooting for the execution of politicians you don't like?
Yeah. That's bad.

I don't know, I would support a system that executes politicians I don't like.

  • Fenrir
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #26
Because Constantine won the Battle of the Milvian Bridge through the power of hugging.
Freedom of worship was not secured by Constantine. Sorry try again.
So who was is secured by?
Jesus

Really? So Jesus was emperor and passed decrees allowing people to worship freely and removing the need to publicly swear oaths on gods they didn't believe in?

That's a very weird Bible you have there.

Quote

And I'd note that once the Christians took over completely they very quickly went the other way and prevented the various pagan sects and mystery cults from worshipping freely. Not a lot of "love" going on there was there? Just ask Hypatia.
Exactly.

Which is why I said it wasn't Constantine that secured it.

Constantine didn't make Christianity the only state religion Dave.

But he did drive all the demons away.

Then Satan triumphed and made him become Keanu Reeves.

Woe to us all.
It's what plants crave.

Re: Memorial Day
Reply #27
Ok here's a topic ...

I hear all these preachers tearfully saying things like ...

"Oh I'm so thankful for those service boys who died in battle so that we could worship in freedom."

Really?

No soldiers fought any wars during Roman times to secure freedom of worship.

Freedom of worship was secured during that time by ...

[Drum roll]

LOVE

Not war.

What say you?
Actually during the reign of the Holy Roman Emprire my original culture's freedom of worship was forcefully eradicated. The mere mention of Wodan was outlawed. Even today Wodansday is called "middle-of-the-week" in German.
  • Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 02:38:52 PM by Saunt Taunga

  • uncool
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #28
The Roman Empire or the Holy Roman Empire? I thought the Norse religion was mostly wiped out even by the start of the HRE.

Re: Memorial Day
Reply #29
The Roman Empire or the Holy Roman Empire?
The Roman Empire that became Holy when freedom of worship for all except a Judean war-god was outlawed.

Re: Memorial Day
Reply #30
The Roman Empire or the Holy Roman Empire? I thought the Norse religion was mostly wiped out even by the start of the HRE.
Details.

  • uncool
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #31
Heh. So the original then. ETA: That kinda describes both, on reconsideration.

One of history's great jokes: the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire. (Thanks Voltaire)
  • Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 03:02:03 PM by uncool

Re: Memorial Day
Reply #32
The Roman Empire or the Holy Roman Empire? I thought the Norse religion was mostly wiped out even by the start of the HRE.
Details.
Charlemagne was crowned Holy Roman Emperor in 800. The Norse religions were still around then, even if they were being ruthlessly oppressed at the time. (viz, Charlemagne's massacre of pagan Saxons at Verden).
Why do I bother?

Re: Memorial Day
Reply #33
The Unholy Roman Empire had more freedom of worship. You could worship whoever and however you liked, as long as the you did not forget to worship the Emperor. Trump would have loved that arrangement.

Re: Memorial Day
Reply #34
The Roman Empire or the Holy Roman Empire? I thought the Norse religion was mostly wiped out even by the start of the HRE.
Details.
Charlemagne was crowned Holy Roman Emperor in 800. The Norse religions were still around then, even if they were being ruthlessly oppressed at the time. (viz, Charlemagne's massacre of pagan Saxons at Verden).
Much of the infrastructure that made that possible was Roman. The Roman Empire never fell, there was a gradual change of management.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #35
Because Constantine won the Battle of the Milvian Bridge through the power of hugging.
Freedom of worship was not secured by Constantine. Sorry try again.
So who was is secured by?
Jesus and his disciples.
::)
 
What a remarkably dumb thing to write.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #36
Because Constantine won the Battle of the Milvian Bridge through the power of hugging.
Freedom of worship was not secured by Constantine. Sorry try again.
So who was is secured by?
Jesus and his disciples.
::)
 
What a remarkably dumb thing to write.
I told you, Bluffy is on a holy hyperbole high for Sunday.
Are we there yet?

Re: Memorial Day
Reply #37
The Roman Empire or the Holy Roman Empire? I thought the Norse religion was mostly wiped out even by the start of the HRE.
Charlemagne fought early Vikings. They pillaged for another few hundred years after he died.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • Photon
  • I interfere with myself
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #38
Because Constantine won the Battle of the Milvian Bridge through the power of hugging.
Freedom of worship was not secured by Constantine. Sorry try again.
So who was is secured by?
Jesus and his disciples.

Freedom of worship was secured by Jesus and his disciples? What idiot stick were you hit with? That Jesus club that walloped you must make you misunderstand basic terms and reasoning.

I'm glad Jesus secured for me the right to worship Quetzalcoatl! He pretty.
  • Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 11:08:07 PM by Photon

Re: Memorial Day
Reply #39
I prefer Pan.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Memorial Day
Reply #40
The Roman Empire or the Holy Roman Empire? I thought the Norse religion was mostly wiped out even by the start of the HRE.
Charlemagne fought early Vikings. They pillaged for another few hundred years after he died.
Some Vikings then became Russia.
We are still fighting those assholes.

Fun fact: I saw Charlemagne's tomb. It was cool.

And unlike many similar tombs of similar age, it is very probable that Charlemagne's actual real bones are actually really in that tomb.
  • Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 01:59:39 AM by Saunt Taunga

Re: Memorial Day
Reply #41
Ok here's a topic ...

I hear all these preachers tearfully saying things like ...

"Oh I'm so thankful for those service boys who died in battle so that we could worship in freedom."

Really?

No soldiers fought any wars during Roman times to secure freedom of worship.

Freedom of worship was secured during that time by ...

[Drum roll]

LOVE

Not war.

What say you?
I'd say, as an outsider looking in, an important motivation of Christians was HATE. Hate, oppression and persecution for all that dare to think and worship differently. First for the various pagan cultures, Roman or otherwise, later for the many deviant traditions among the Christians themselves. This hate fueled centuries of war, persecution, oppression and torture in Europe.


Re: Memorial Day
Reply #42
Because Constantine won the Battle of the Milvian Bridge through the power of hugging.
Freedom of worship was not secured by Constantine. Sorry try again.
So who was is secured by?
Jesus and his disciples.
::)
 
What a remarkably dumb thing to write.
Nope.  It's true.  True Christianity - not the authoritarian, Spanish Inquisition kind, but rather the self sacrificing kind that taught people to love their enemies and so many other good virtues, the kind I'm not very good at - spread rapidly throughout the Roman Empire up until Constantine.  And the reason it spread was NOT because of imperial decree or military force or anything else external.

The reason was internal.  As in ... inside people's hearts.  In other words, people obtained freedom of worship as a result of internal change they saw in others and of course this internal change all started with Jesus and the disciples.  Jesus' teachings on these sorts of things are well known.

So yeah, freedom of worship came because of Jesus and the disciples ... not by imperial decree or military force.

What began under Constantine was different.  It was the beginning of the bastardization and cooption of Christianity and it ended up looking like any other garden variety tyranny only it had different veneer.



Re: Memorial Day
Reply #43
Because Constantine won the Battle of the Milvian Bridge through the power of hugging.
Freedom of worship was not secured by Constantine. Sorry try again.
So who was is secured by?
Jesus and his disciples.
::)
 
What a remarkably dumb thing to write.
Nope.  It's true.  True Christianity - not the authoritarian, Spanish Inquisition kind, but rather the self sacrificing kind that taught people to love their enemies and so many other good virtues, the kind I'm not very good at - spread rapidly throughout the Roman Empire up until Constantine.  And the reason it spread was NOT because of imperial decree or military force or anything else external.

The reason was internal.  As in ... inside people's hearts.  In other words, people obtained freedom of worship as a result of internal change they saw in others and of course this internal change all started with Jesus and the disciples.  Jesus' teachings on these sorts of things are well known.

So yeah, freedom of worship came because of Jesus and the disciples ... not by imperial decree or military force.

What began under Constantine was different.  It was the beginning of the bastardization and cooption of Christianity and it ended up looking like any other garden variety tyranny only it had different veneer.
So, you are saying Christianity is good when they are not in charge?

Re: Memorial Day
Reply #44
No.  It's good when they don't try to use Christianity to set up earthly kingdoms like Catholicism or Joel Osteen.  It would be real good if they would not take salaries and benefits for serving in church or in government.  I'm encouraged by the things I'm hearing about DT in this regard.  Christianity is not about earthly kingdoms, not in this present age.  In the age to come, it will be but not now.  For now it's a "mystery kingdom" a kingdom within people's hearts and minds. 

  • Faid
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #45
How Christianity spread and how Christianity "secured freedom of worship" are two different things, dave. Before Constantine, and with only a few intermissions, Christianity remained illegal. Without Constantine, it would have remained illegal for God knows how long. You may argue that the principles of Christianity ensured that it would continue to spread, and eventually at some point, become legal- But that is quite the stretch of an argument for saying that Jesus "secured freedom of worship".
And let's face it: No matter how fast a new religion spreads, the old one does not go down without a fight. So some kind of confortation was bound to happen. And guess what: It did.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

Re: Memorial Day
Reply #46
No.  It's good when they don't try to use Christianity to set up earthly kingdoms like Catholicism or Joel Osteen.  It would be real good if they would not take salaries and benefits for serving in church or in government.  I'm encouraged by the things I'm hearing about DT in this regard.  Christianity is not about earthly kingdoms, not in this present age.  In the age to come, it will be but not now.  For now it's a "mystery kingdom" a kingdom within people's hearts and minds.
So, for example, should people with a "mystery kingdom" in their hearts and minds be allowed to decree that some things you need a microscope to see can be called babies? And enforce this decree for people unencumbered by mystery kingdoms?

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #47
Christians were intermittently persecuted (you know, the whole lions in the arenas thing) for three centuries after Jesus. Then Constantine came along and for the next 17 centuries or so Christians persecuted everyone else (and of course other Christians they thought were worshipping wrong. )

Your moronic little homily above (with its perfect example of No True Scotsman) doesn't even remotely address the point: Freedom of Worship .  Everyone has ALWAYS been free to worship any way they like. It's just that sometimes they get killed, tortured, or blackballed from the country club for it. Jesus didn't change that.

ETA:  ninja'd by Faid. My point, exactly.
  • Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 04:29:29 AM by VoxRat
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • uncool
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #48
Because Constantine won the Battle of the Milvian Bridge through the power of hugging.
Freedom of worship was not secured by Constantine. Sorry try again.
So who was is secured by?
Jesus and his disciples.
::)
 
What a remarkably dumb thing to write.
Nope.  It's true.  True Christianity - not the authoritarian, Spanish Inquisition kind, but rather the self sacrificing kind that taught people to love their enemies and so many other good virtues, the kind I'm not very good at - spread rapidly throughout the Roman Empire up until Constantine.  And the reason it spread was NOT because of imperial decree or military force or anything else external.

The reason was internal.  As in ... inside people's hearts.  In other words, people obtained freedom of worship as a result of internal change they saw in others and of course this internal change all started with Jesus and the disciples.  Jesus' teachings on these sorts of things are well known.

So yeah, freedom of worship came because of Jesus and the disciples ... not by imperial decree or military force.

What began under Constantine was different.  It was the beginning of the bastardization and cooption of Christianity and it ended up looking like any other garden variety tyranny only it had different veneer.
So let me see if I can rephrase.

Christianity - true Christianity - is by definition good. Freedom of religion is good. Therefore spreading true Christianity by definition secured freedom of religion.

Did I miss anything?

  • Faid
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #49
No.  It's good when they don't try to use Christianity to set up earthly kingdoms like Catholicism or Joel Osteen.  It would be real good if they would not take salaries and benefits for serving in church or in government.  I'm encouraged by the things I'm hearing about DT in this regard.  Christianity is not about earthly kingdoms, not in this present age.  In the age to come, it will be but not now.  For now it's a "mystery kingdom" a kingdom within people's hearts and minds. 
Well I'm glad you think Christianity should not be an official religion tied to a nation or state. Which means it should not be favorably treated compared to other religions in that nation or state, either. And in accordance to denying them benefits, I suppose you are against tax exemptions for religious organizations- And against the prosperity gospel guys. What do you know, we agree for once!
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.