Skip to main content

TR Memescape

  • TalkRational: This may well be the biggest honor of my life.

Topic: Memorial Day (Read 2073 times) previous topic - next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #50
Hey Hawkins...
You keep schoolmarmishly tut-tutting about how this is supposed to be a science forum*.
wtf does this topic have to do with science ?



* it's really not.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Memorial Day
Reply #51
Christians were intermittently persecuted (you know, the whole lions in the arenas thing) for three centuries after Jesus. Then Constantine came along and for the next 17 centuries or so Christians persecuted everyone else (and of course other Christians they thought were worshipping wrong. )

Your moronic little homily above (with its perfect example of No True Scotsman) doesn't even remotely address the point: Freedom of Worship .  Everyone has ALWAYS been free to worship any way they like. It's just that sometimes they get killed, tortured, or blackballed from the country club for it. Jesus didn't change that.

ETA:  ninja'd by Faid. My point, exactly.
There were periods of tolerance and persecution before Constantine. Just before he became Emperor there was a period of persecution under Diocletian. Just after Diocletian abdicated and died this policy was reversed, and later parts of the purge weren't enacted throughout the Empire either. Prior to this while there wasn't freedom.of worship in quite the way we'd see it today Christians were ignored.
Why do I bother?

Re: Memorial Day
Reply #52
How Christianity spread and how Christianity "secured freedom of worship" are two different things, dave. Before Constantine, and with only a few intermissions, Christianity remained illegal. Without Constantine, it would have remained illegal for God knows how long. You may argue that the principles of Christianity ensured that it would continue to spread, and eventually at some point, become legal- But that is quite the stretch of an argument for saying that Jesus "secured freedom of worship".
And let's face it: No matter how fast a new religion spreads, the old one does not go down without a fight. So some kind of confortation was bound to happen. And guess what: It did.
The reason I Think Jesus and the disciples are the ones mostly responsible for Religious Freedom is because it was they who articulated the most fundamental principles of Freedom, which if adopted by governments result in less persecution of people regardless of which deity they choose to believe in.


Re: Memorial Day
Reply #53
Christianity says that all men are created equal and the more people that believe that the less slavery we will have in our world, for example.

  • uncool
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #54
Evidence for my summary continues to accrue.

  • uncool
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #55
Oh, and Dave: when did they "secure" religious freedom? You still haven't answered.

Re: Memorial Day
Reply #56
Other religions do that too Dave. Or at least its not in any way inconsistent with them. And there are plenty of concepts that Jesus didn't explicitly repudiate that Christians used to justify their own persecutions, and slavery.

But none of that has anything to do with freedom of worship, which is bestowed on people by a state organisation.
Why do I bother?

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #57
Christianity says that all men are created equal
No, it doesn't. 
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #58
Oh, and Dave: when did they "secure" religious freedom? You still haven't answered.
There is a reason for that.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #59
I think when Dave says 'freedom of religion', he means 'freedom to practice some version of fundamentalist Christianity'. No other religions need apply.

  • Fenrir
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #60
How Christianity spread and how Christianity "secured freedom of worship" are two different things, dave. Before Constantine, and with only a few intermissions, Christianity remained illegal. Without Constantine, it would have remained illegal for God knows how long. You may argue that the principles of Christianity ensured that it would continue to spread, and eventually at some point, become legal- But that is quite the stretch of an argument for saying that Jesus "secured freedom of worship".
And let's face it: No matter how fast a new religion spreads, the old one does not go down without a fight. So some kind of confortation was bound to happen. And guess what: It did.
The reason I Think Jesus and the disciples are the ones mostly responsible for Religious Freedom is because it was they who articulated the most fundamental principles of Freedom, which if adopted by governments result in less persecution of people regardless of which deity they choose to believe in.


Now if only there was some sort of credible evidence that anything in those stories actually happened and happened in any way like is presented in the stories.
It's what plants crave.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #61
The reason I Think Jesus and the disciples are the ones mostly responsible for Religious Freedom is because it was they who articulated the most fundamental principles of Freedom
Please quote these alleged articulations of "the most fundamental principles of Freedom".  

:popcorn:
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • Peez
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #62
Jesus promoted freedom of religion the way that Stalin promoted democracy.

Quote
Matthew 10:14-15
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
linkity

Sure you can worship someone else, but then you are going to meet a fate worse than that of the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Peez

  • Peez
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #63
Quote
Matthew 12:30
Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

linkity

Peez

  • ToThePoint
  • search & destroy
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #64
I think when Dave says 'freedom of religion', he means 'freedom to practice some version of fundamentalist Christianity'. No other religions need apply.

You're an admin. Use your powers to change Dave's username to Myopic Bête Noire.

Meanwhile, another POV...

Quote
Memorial Day

Scholars,[64][65][66][67] following the lead of sociologist Robert Bellah, often make the argument that the United States has a secular "civil religion" - one with no association with any religious denomination or viewpoint - that has incorporated Memorial Day as a sacred event. With the Civil War, a new theme of death, sacrifice and rebirth enters the civil religion. Memorial Day gave ritual expression to these themes, integrating the local community into a sense of nationalism. The American civil religion, in contrast to that of France, was never anticlerical or militantly secular; in contrast to Britain, it was not tied to a specific denomination, such as the Church of England. The Americans borrowed from different religious traditions so that the average American saw no conflict between the two, and deep levels of personal motivation were aligned with attaining national goals.[68]
Memorial Day has been called a "modern cult of the dead". It incorporates Christian themes of sacrifice while uniting citizens of various faiths.[69]
"This is your life and it's ending one minute at a time."

  • Pingu
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #65
Christianity says that all men are created equal
No, it doesn't. 

Absolutely it doesn't.  There are various sayings attributed to Jesus that imply that the "first will be last and the last will be first". So a reversal of the secular ranking, not equality.

And nothing about freedom of religion, unless you count stuff about willingness to be persecuted for your religion being a good thing.  Which would seem to be the opposite.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • Pingu
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #66
The reason I Think Jesus and the disciples are the ones mostly responsible for Religious Freedom is because it was they who articulated the most fundamental principles of Freedom
Please quote these alleged articulations of "the most fundamental principles of Freedom".  

:popcorn:

Yeah, I'd like to see those.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • Peez
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #67
Quote
2 Corinthians 6:14-17
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial[a]? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people. Therefore, Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.

linkity

Peez

  • Peez
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #68
Quote
Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.^équote¸
ûrl=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+2%3A10-11&version=NIV¸linkity^éurl¸

I am not feeling the warm freedom of religion fuzzies here.

Peez

  • Peez
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #69
Quote
Titus 1:10-11
For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.

linkity

"They must be silenced"?  That does not sound like freedom of religion.

Peez

  • Photon
  • I interfere with myself
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #70
There's no point arguing the bible with Dave. Like all other resources, he's already decided what it says, and in true Hawkinsing fashion, ignores what he doesn't like. Also, he doesn't really care, he already has a self-satisfying narrative, he doesn't need any confusing conflating data, so your efforts can be safely ignored.

If *anyone* somehow gets "freedom of religion" from the Bible, or through the actions of Jesus and the apostles, that person isn't really familiar with the text. Dave cherrypicks, and consistently misunderstands.

  • Pingu
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #71
Or Davinations constructs like "freedom of religion" to mean whatever he wants it to mean.  And "Christianity" ditto.

I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • nesb
Re: Memorial Day
Reply #72
The Bible's the one that declares American independence, right?

Re: Memorial Day
Reply #73
This doesn't sound like freedom to me.
Quote from: Jesus
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Re: Memorial Day
Reply #74
Because Constantine won the Battle of the Milvian Bridge through the power of hugging.
Freedom of worship was not secured by Constantine. Sorry try again.
So who was is secured by?
Jesus and his disciples.
::)
 
What a remarkably dumb thing to write.
Nope.  It's true.  True Christianity - not the authoritarian, Spanish Inquisition kind, but rather the self sacrificing kind that taught people to love their enemies and so many other good virtues, the kind I'm not very good at - spread rapidly throughout the Roman Empire up until Constantine.  And the reason it spread was NOT because of imperial decree or military force or anything else external.

The reason was internal.  As in ... inside people's hearts.  In other words, people obtained freedom of worship as a result of internal change they saw in others and of course this internal change all started with Jesus and the disciples.  Jesus' teachings on these sorts of things are well known.

So yeah, freedom of worship came because of Jesus and the disciples ... not by imperial decree or military force.

What began under Constantine was different.  It was the beginning of the bastardization and cooption of Christianity and it ended up looking like any other garden variety tyranny only it had different veneer.



I can kinda buy that the teachings of jesus acted as a counter force to the authoritarian regime of the church and may have played something of a role in the enlightenment where we discovered that god was not personally intervening in the universe and the mythological parts of the world's religions are myth rather than history.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor