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Topic: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution (Read 3300 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • socrates1
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #225

https://www.springer.com/cda/content/document/cda_downloaddocument/9783319150444-c2.pdf?SGWID=0-0-45-1494358-p177219674
Quote
Thus, character evolution occurs chiefly in
concert with, and is caused by, speciation--bifurcation of an ancestral lineage into
two reproductively isolated descendants. The new, modified "daughter" species
originates as a small, geographically localized population, in which the evolutionary
transition from one optimal phenotype to another occurs rapidly.
A "small, geographically localized population".

And in a small group there will only be a small number of random mutations that could prove to be beneficial.
  • Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 12:20:09 PM by socrates1

  • Faid
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #226
What if it's a small group that broke off from a large group?
  • Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 12:52:02 PM by Faid
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • Faid
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #227
Apparently "socrates" has no answer to that question.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #228
Apparently "socrates" has no answer to that question.

Or any question for that matter.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #229

https://www.springer.com/cda/content/document/cda_downloaddocument/9783319150444-c2.pdf?SGWID=0-0-45-1494358-p177219674
Quote
Thus, character evolution occurs chiefly in
concert with, and is caused by, speciation--bifurcation of an ancestral lineage into
two reproductively isolated descendants. The new, modified "daughter" species
originates as a small, geographically localized population, in which the evolutionary
transition from one optimal phenotype to another occurs rapidly.
A "small, geographically localized population".

And in a small group there will only be a small number of random mutations that could prove to be beneficial.
sucky, do you realize this is all an explanation of their theory, not a description of reality?

I'd also note, when they talk about quantities of mutations, they are talking theoretically, probabilistically. Sort of "on average" all things being equal. There's no reason a small group couldn't have a large number of mutations. Just it's not the norm one would expect. Maybe they spend a lot of time in the sun or they live on top of the OKLO reactors or there's some sort of mutagenic compound in the soils that gets uptaken by plants and those eaten by that group or in the water they drink. Or perhaps they face some other very strong mutagenic force and a very strong selective force.

Unfortunately, it appears your imagination is lacking. As well as your reasoning skills.

You really need to differentiate between theory and reality, between the model and reality.
Are we there yet?

  • socrates1
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #230
Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.
No response to this.

  • Faid
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #231
Its not a question.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • Faid
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #232
This, however, is:
What if it's a small group that broke off from a large group?
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • socrates1
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #233
Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.
No response to this.
Nobody is interested in expressing agreement or disagreement with this. I understand.

Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #234
Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.
No response to this.
Nobody is interested in expressing agreement or disagreement with this. I understand.

I'm a bit 'meh' on it to be honest.

  • RickB
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #235
Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.
No response to this.
Nobody is interested in expressing agreement or disagreement with this. I understand.

Why does Nature take several thousand generations (of what I have no idea, since something brand spanking new is being created) to 'create' a brand new animal?  Why doesn't Nature just magic the new animal into existence as you claim Nature originally did?


  • socrates1
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #236
Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.
No response to this.
Nobody is interested in expressing agreement or disagreement with this. I understand.

Why does Nature take several thousand generations (of what I have no idea, since something brand spanking new is being created) to 'create' a brand new animal?  Why doesn't Nature just magic the new animal into existence as you claim Nature originally did?


I do not understand you. Can you elaborate?

  • RickB
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #237
Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.
No response to this.
Nobody is interested in expressing agreement or disagreement with this. I understand.

Why does Nature take several thousand generations (of what I have no idea, since something brand spanking new is being created) to 'create' a brand new animal?  Why doesn't Nature just magic the new animal into existence as you claim Nature originally did?


I do not understand you. Can you elaborate?

I don't know what you don't understand.  Please state for me what you think that I was saying.

  • socrates1
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #238
Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.
No response to this.
Nobody is interested in expressing agreement or disagreement with this. I understand.

Why does Nature take several thousand generations (of what I have no idea, since something brand spanking new is being created) to 'create' a brand new animal?  Why doesn't Nature just magic the new animal into existence as you claim Nature originally did?


I do not understand you. Can you elaborate?

I don't know what you don't understand.  Please state for me what you think that I was saying.

Could you start by saying what you think I have been saying please.

  • RickB
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #239
Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.
No response to this.
Nobody is interested in expressing agreement or disagreement with this. I understand.

Why does Nature take several thousand generations (of what I have no idea, since something brand spanking new is being created) to 'create' a brand new animal?  Why doesn't Nature just magic the new animal into existence as you claim Nature originally did?


I do not understand you. Can you elaborate?

I don't know what you don't understand.  Please state for me what you think that I was saying.

Could you start by saying what you think I have been saying please.

Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.

Do you want me to parse this statement, or comment on what I think that you have been saying for the last 10+ years?


  • socrates1
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #240
Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.
No response to this.
Nobody is interested in expressing agreement or disagreement with this. I understand.

Why does Nature take several thousand generations (of what I have no idea, since something brand spanking new is being created) to 'create' a brand new animal?  Why doesn't Nature just magic the new animal into existence as you claim Nature originally did?


I do not understand you. Can you elaborate?

I don't know what you don't understand.  Please state for me what you think that I was saying.

Could you start by saying what you think I have been saying please.

Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.

Do you want me to parse this statement, or comment on what I think that you have been saying for the last 10+ years?


Start wherever you wish.

  • RickB
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #241
Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.
No response to this.
Nobody is interested in expressing agreement or disagreement with this. I understand.

Why does Nature take several thousand generations (of what I have no idea, since something brand spanking new is being created) to 'create' a brand new animal?  Why doesn't Nature just magic the new animal into existence as you claim Nature originally did?


I do not understand you. Can you elaborate?

I don't know what you don't understand.  Please state for me what you think that I was saying.

Could you start by saying what you think I have been saying please.

Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.

Do you want me to parse this statement, or comment on what I think that you have been saying for the last 10+ years?


Start wherever you wish.

Very well.  You think life is a picket fence without any horizontal attachments. 
Each picket represents a lineage, which you have never been able to adequately define.  You have been no better than standard biology at defining 'species'. 

The main point of which is that each lineage has an absolute unique first member, or members for sexually reproducing lineages.  Those first members couldn't have taken tens of thousands of years to evolve (or there would be no meaningful way to prove so as there was no evidence that they existed until they existed) since they had no predecessor.  In other words, in your world view, they just poofed into existence, in other words magic.

Nor do changes in a lineage (changes within the picket lineage) necessarily take tens of thousands of years.  Could, doesn't have to. New species can arise overnight or take tens of millions of years.  Mosasaurs to whales, pterosaurs to birds, Neanderthals to modern humans.  All indisputable facts in your "Nature" did it world view.






  • socrates1
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #242
Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.
No response to this.
Nobody is interested in expressing agreement or disagreement with this. I understand.

Why does Nature take several thousand generations (of what I have no idea, since something brand spanking new is being created) to 'create' a brand new animal?  Why doesn't Nature just magic the new animal into existence as you claim Nature originally did?


I do not understand you. Can you elaborate?

I don't know what you don't understand.  Please state for me what you think that I was saying.

Could you start by saying what you think I have been saying please.

Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.

Do you want me to parse this statement, or comment on what I think that you have been saying for the last 10+ years?


Start wherever you wish.

Very well.  You think life is a picket fence without any horizontal attachments. 
Each picket represents a lineage, which you have never been able to adequately define.  You have been no better than standard biology at defining 'species'. 

The main point of which is that each lineage has an absolute unique first member, or members for sexually reproducing lineages.  Those first members couldn't have taken tens of thousands of years to evolve (or there would be no meaningful way to prove so as there was no evidence that they existed until they existed) since they had no predecessor.  In other words, in your world view, they just poofed into existence, in other words magic.

Nor do changes in a lineage (changes within the picket lineage) necessarily take tens of thousands of years.  Could, doesn't have to. New species can arise overnight or take tens of millions of years.  Mosasaurs to whales, pterosaurs to birds, Neanderthals to modern humans.  All indisputable facts in your "Nature" did it world view.






In many ways you seem to confirm that:
Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.
Agreed?

  • RickB
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #243
Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.
No response to this.
Nobody is interested in expressing agreement or disagreement with this. I understand.

Why does Nature take several thousand generations (of what I have no idea, since something brand spanking new is being created) to 'create' a brand new animal?  Why doesn't Nature just magic the new animal into existence as you claim Nature originally did?


I do not understand you. Can you elaborate?

I don't know what you don't understand.  Please state for me what you think that I was saying.

Could you start by saying what you think I have been saying please.

Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.

Do you want me to parse this statement, or comment on what I think that you have been saying for the last 10+ years?


Start wherever you wish.

Very well.  You think life is a picket fence without any horizontal attachments. 
Each picket represents a lineage, which you have never been able to adequately define.  You have been no better than standard biology at defining 'species'. 

The main point of which is that each lineage has an absolute unique first member, or members for sexually reproducing lineages.  Those first members couldn't have taken tens of thousands of years to evolve (or there would be no meaningful way to prove so as there was no evidence that they existed until they existed) since they had no predecessor.  In other words, in your world view, they just poofed into existence, in other words magic.

Nor do changes in a lineage (changes within the picket lineage) necessarily take tens of thousands of years.  Could, doesn't have to. New species can arise overnight or take tens of millions of years.  Mosasaurs to whales, pterosaurs to birds, Neanderthals to modern humans.  All indisputable facts in your "Nature" did it world view.






In many ways you seem to confirm that:
Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.
Agreed?

Hmm.  You asked that I 'start by saying what you think I have been saying please'. 
Are you agreeing that I have accurately described what 'you have been saying'?

  • socrates1
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #244
I do not agree that you have accurately described what I have been saying.
Start with the passage above:
Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.
  • Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 08:45:51 PM by socrates1

  • RickB
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #245
I do not agree that you have accurately described what I have been saying.
Start with the passage above:
Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.

My first comment, that has been deleted from this post.
Quote
Why does Nature take several thousand generations (of what I have no idea, since something brand spanking new is being created) to 'create' a brand new animal?  Why doesn't Nature just magic the new animal into existence as you claim Nature originally did?

My statement about what I thought Socrates has been saying as he requested, also deleted from this post.
Quote
Very well.  You think life is a picket fence without any horizontal attachments. 
Each picket represents a lineage, which you have never been able to adequately define.  You have been no better than standard biology at defining 'species'. 

The main point of which is that each lineage has an absolute unique first member, or members for sexually reproducing lineages.  Those first members couldn't have taken tens of thousands of years to evolve (or there would be no meaningful way to prove so as there was no evidence that they existed until they existed) since they had no predecessor.  In other words, in your world view, they just poofed into existence, in other words magic.

Nor do changes in a lineage (changes within the picket lineage) necessarily take tens of thousands of years.  Could, doesn't have to. New species can arise overnight or take tens of millions of years.  Mosasaurs to whales, pterosaurs to birds, Neanderthals to modern humans.  All indisputable facts in your "Nature" did it world view.

You say that this is an inaccurate description of your worldview, but don't say why.  Care to elaborate?

Now Socrates wants me to comment again on the initial post that I commented about, sheesh!
Quote
Evolution can be extremely rapid, as shown in the creation of animals and plants in a very short geological space of time, spanning only a few tens of thousands of years.

To say 'Evolution can be extremely rapid' is not a very significant statement.  Mutations in lineages happen on a daily basis.  Every offspring is different from its parents. 

But to say this is 'shown in the creation of animals and plants' is a bit ambiguous.   But, ignoring any religious or supernatural co notations, and assuming that new species is what is meant, then yes new species can evolve over short time spans.  Nylon eating bacteria evolved over only a few decades.  To discuss time spans you need to define the end points.  Cetaceans evolved over some 50 million years between being land dwelling mammals and fully aquatic mammals.

As to your statement, it is a description of a narrow aspect of evolution and uses deceptive language, so no I do not agree with it in a general sense.


  • Faid
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #246
This, however, is:
What if it's a small group that broke off from a large group?
No response to this.

I understand.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • socrates1
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #247
Quote
In apparent confirmation of this punctuated equilibrium view of evolution, the fossil record of an evolutionary progression typically consists of species that suddenly appear, and ultimately disappear, hundreds of thousands or millions of years later, without any change in external appearance.[78][91][93]

In other words "poof". According to the fossil record.
But my position which I have posted many times is more nuanced than that. Remember my talking about Nature's genetic engineering?
  • Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 06:37:40 AM by socrates1

  • socrates1
Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #248
Also in my descriptions of the evolution of birds or humans or whales* I never even employed the idea of "poof". My arguments have been scrupulously stated in pure evolution terms. In other words I played by the evolution theory rules.


* Note that I never fleshed out the ichthyosaur to whale theory. My emphasis has been on birds and humans.

Re: Sweeping gene survey reveals new facets of evolution
Reply #249
Quote
In apparent confirmation of this punctuated equilibrium view of evolution, the fossil record of an evolutionary progression typically consists of species that suddenly appear, and ultimately disappear, hundreds of thousands or millions of years later, without any change in external appearance.[78][91][93]

In other words "poof". According to the fossil record.
But my position which I have posted many times is more nuanced than that. Remember my talking about Nature's genetic engineering?

Was that the stuff about the BIRD teams and the MAMMAL engineering teams?