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Messages - arpie

Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind

How can you be a believer when you find all the evidence goes contrary to the claim?

Sorry this reply is so late, but it's complicated. My first reaction to this discussion back in '07, was that of course ddw.. was doable. For me it was just a question of leverage. With a large prop and a gear driving it once the wind started the cart moving, why not?

Of course as I would learn from humber and the C's, it was complicated. Still, your question was how I can remain a 'believer,' so here's my rationale.

As I've made clear, most of this is way over my head. However, wrt Windgrin's question about how many deniers I've seen in this debate, I only recall 5. I'm assuming Christoff (?) had 3. Whatever. This is among well over a hundred people who weighed in, so the consensus is overwhelming.

But the one that cinched it for me was the AAPT that ended any slim doubts. I even got the guy in charge to send an email I posted here to confirm there were NO objections to the problem on page 11 regarding spork's cart.

This said, I still nurture some doubts about how a small cart prop, as used on the TM, could exceed WS. The Aeolus trials have just recently reached WS, and the prop-size difference is much smaller. Add to that I-Ratant's videos and none showing a cart outrunning the wind after all this time, it does still make an innumerate like me wonder.

So convince me. The fact all these posters who know far more about the physics in play than I do, makes me think I'm wrong about the TM carts, like MikeB's. And I hope on his next test he takes a bag of popcorn. Dummy I am, I need to SEE it to be sure.

Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
It should have been a piece of cake
says the guy who has never done a scientific experiment in his life.

It's one thing to decide (without any evidence) that Mike must be lying.  It's another thing entirely to lie blatantly about what Mike has said in this thread.  Go ahead and pretend you know what happened, but don't pretend that your invented narrative has any basis in Mike's words.

You are clearly in no position to lecture anyone about honesty.

Wow. You could be a journalist these days, BD. Are you in a position to lecture about honesty? While I agree Mike was honest in his reporting, it all sounded rather ambiguous to me. And again excuses and unverifiable observations are presented in place of the long awaited video.

I find it amusing some here keep bringing up the dust video and stringers as proof. Humber had a quite extensive response to both, as has Heinz. I see a lot of bias all around, and will remain slightly confused until I see the cart outrunning something. Had Mike used popcorn instead of balloons then for me the reservations would have vanished had his cart outrun it. Can't tell how often I've wished I Ratant had never deleted his tests. Heinz would love them, especially if he knew this cart was built by a VERY experienced model builder who expected opposite results. I know how he felt.

When I Ratant posted his first test on Youtube, with a link to it on JREF, I was blown away. He let his cart go first in a strong wind, and it was about 50 yards down the road when he released the the popcorn. I vividly recall thinking 'what a farce.' It will never catch up with such a big lead. Then, fast as the cart was moving in a 20 mph wind, the popcorn blew right past it. I was astounded.

I R did some 5 tests, plus 2 more on a different day but also with a strong wind. The results were the same. Like Mike, he had excuses and was still a believer. As am I, but as I said before, being a moron I can't trust my analysis. It will take a video of a cart outrunning actual wind to reassure me.

@windgrins: Please don't post your ludicrous video wrt the popcorn. Fool that I am, it really makes me wonder if you are as bright as I have long assumed. Would love to have a call with you where you could justify what to me seems like something Trump might buy from Miller. I've read your rationales in the past, and it still eludes me. Might you possibly be wrong??

Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
Didn't get notified this thread had become active again. And jsyk if you miss one of the notices and don't delete it, you won't get any new ones. :(

Speaking as the long acknowledged 'dimmest bulb' on this marque, I truly love reading the debate, and am grateful to Heinz for reviving it. Dummy that I am, it still confounds me that all you very bright people continue to refer to your contrarian interlocutors as idiots. As if. I'm the closest you'll get to a true idiot. Yet even I wonder why y'all undermine really smart people by calling them my equal. Don't you see what even a fool like me can ascertain? It only undermines your analysis.

Like humber, Heinz is obviously a very bright and articulate guy. I did find humber's put downs a lot funnier, and wonder why someone as serious and knowledgeable as Heinz would undermine his case by calling others here like BD and uncool morons. Then why would you afford them a detailed reply? And of course the same applies to his many detractors here.

Remember Michael C? He was my idol wrt maintaining the 'high ground' while making coherent arguments substantiated by many different models. Wonder if Heinz has seen them. Seems I recall a few posted earlier. I'm sure he has (had) a rebuttal but I can't recall it. But I hope he keeps on arguing that we are all wrong, and that until a video can be produced showing a wind powered cart outrunning balloons, popcorn, or whatever for at least a half minute, I will remain open to the idea that Heinz and humber are right.

 When IRatant posted his videos of his cart racing popcorn, it was quite obvious his cart and the popcorn were going in the same direction and that his cart wasn't even close to their speed. If there truly were other idiots like myself involved in this discussion, they would understand why I need to see a cart outrunning the wind, not just read physics/math explanations that are way beyond our comprehension. But I love reading these explanations anyway, and want to thank all the participants here for engaging Heinz and to him for trying to make his case.

I am already well familiar with the physics.
You repeatedly prove otherwise.

For those in the audience who definitely know a lot less about physics than Heinz, it would be helpful to see specific rebuttals on his statements as opposed to generalized ad-homs. And I truly hope that Neil brings some balloons or packing popcorn with him to finally give us a visual proof of ddwfttw.
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
Hope Tom is still working on his cart. Been a while since we've heard from him.  :unsure:
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
Have you tried 'Hobby Town' and 'Pegasus Hobbies?' The wheels shouldn't be hard to find.  :hmm:
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
Just finished reading ynot's thread at JREF-now ISF-and it brought back a lot of memories. Thanks again to Heinz for providing his name. For any wanting to take a 10 page trip back down memory lane here's a link to it; It reminded me how much I miss Mender, Michael C, and many others who have moved on. It's been a hell of a ride.
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
Easy for you maybe, but I still have trouble with g-searches. Thanks Heinz. May I ask what words you typed into google to get his name? I well remember ynot, but didn't think he was the guy with the round belt for his prop driven wheel.

Will check out his posts and share his relevant contributions soon.
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
@Spork; Do you recall the name of the guy from Christchurch NZ you sparred with back in '09 at JREF?
I remember the guy, and the experiment, but not the name.

Bummer. I recall there were some very interesting discussions about his videos, and many points made quite relevant to the idea of circular tracks instead of treadmills. What I don't remember is what you and a few others had a falling out with him about, and his user name.

Thanks anyway spork, and if anyone else here knows who we're talking about let me know.
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
@Spork; Do you recall the name of the guy from Christchurch NZ you sparred with back in '09 at JREF? The one who made the circular track and ran a prop driven wheel on it? He also posted a video of the test he constructed. Remember? Give me a name and I'll find those videos. Heh, and happy christmas.  :smug: 
Wow. Haven't seen Raven's linked story before and I spend most of my time reading news feeds. Will have to start reading this thread. Thought for today? Trump is not the pres most want, but if you look at our history he is certainly the one we deserve.

And Liz, look at how the 1 percent will benefit from Brexit. May is just a female version of the same con. Corbyn is a Brit Sanders. And I say this as a fan of both, but they are up against forces they don't begin to comprehend. It's all so very complicated. Shadows on the cave wall might well foretell the view outside is also an illusion. Fear and loathing is something you've participated in a few years back. You were never a cheerleader, but you were in alignment with the pack quite often. Remember? It's a teeny bit of where we are, but we have all contributed to the current post-facts reality.
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
Last day of finals for this semester. About six weeks off, so, time to start building.

Looking forward to following your efforts, Tom. Good luck.
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
@Grins: I read GEB years ago, and have often referred to it in the old threads. It's one of the few books I've kept over the years. In fact, my emails still have the following statement at the bottom.
Trust me. The statement below is true.
What I wrote above is absolutely false.

Thanks for reminding me about this book, Grins. Are you familiar with Godel's life story? He literally starved to death in his room at Princeton. He became certain someone was trying to poison him. So sad that one of the giants of the century would end this way.

@spork: I've explained my problem with the streamers and dust many times, not that I'd expect you to remember. Anyway, I don't need to search for it as Heinz basically presented the same issues I had, just yesterday. Sorry you still think I'm 'trolling' you here. If you had any idea of how much I truly admire you it would blow your mind. Seriously. Don't you ever disagree with those you know to be tons smarter and more informed than you? What happens when another such person agrees with you? Is it all about the majority view? Have you read GEB?? Familiar with Godel's 'uncertainty?'

I do hope you at least realize I believe BB did exceed WS during your tests. I'm a bit less certain about the wind's direction and overall speed. But after the AAPT accepted the validity of your claims, that uncertainty is about equal to that of my belief I'm the dumbest person in this discussion. :(

PS: Many thanks to BD and CORed for the thoughtful replies. I will think them over during my walk and reply later. And let me apologize for my lowering the level of thought itt.
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
Claim "B" is where you appeared to be going when you said "think of all the examples of widely accepted science that was eventually proven wrong".  But I'm sure you've come across the adage that extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.  The claim that ddwfttw can't work is an extraordinary claim.

Hmm. So even minus any visuals such as I Ratant produced, you think that 'extraordinary evidence' has been presented to prove ddwfttw? Also, can we prove beyond refute that anything 'can't work?' Beyond 'reason,' and perhaps physics, but also beyond any science?

In the runs spork used as proof, he had 2 other vehicles following along. There was some talk beforehand about using smoke or balloons, which could have been done by one of the 2 following BB. It didn't happen. This is what I still find 'extraordinary.'  :raisebrow:

Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
Sorry mistake. Didn't see links at bottom. Will check them all out. Did you get the race with the popcorn? What I've seen so far are some later experiments he did.
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
For those itching to reminisce into some of I.Ratant's "work", here's a (temporary) link to a 32MB zip on my server containing some photos and one classic (11 min) video.

Do note that many of his carts have no connection between the prop and the wheels. For the ones that do, he never provided readable diagrams that describe his cart configurations. It was, in fact, difficult to determine which way he had the props attached and which way they were supposed to turn (they may have been mounted backwards for some of the tests).

Hey RR. I tried that link and got nothing. I recall IR did try a lot of different configurations. So all of them were wrong? When are you going to show us your cart outrunning the smoke and/or balloons? Or did you try it, and like IR didn't get the results you expected??
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
Good points, BD. Perhaps it's "turtles all the way down?"   :smug:
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
#Mike B; I spent a lot of time emailing with IR, and he didn't know anyone with a TM and had no interest in doing it despite my pleas for him to find one to do a video with his cart. He lives in a remote desert area and considered the TM tests irrelevant. I still have doubts about them myself.  :unsure:

His cart was made of foam, and I think it's possible that as a result it had even less traction than the ones spork made. Spork and JB did do 2 videos of their cart racing another geared for reversing the rotation of the prop, after Harold claimed it would go faster. It didn't, but neither did either exceed WS after going about 200 yards in a heavy wind.

Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
I continue to be befuddled by the utter certainty on both sides.
Out of curiosity:  What exactly do you think I'm "utterly certain" about?

Basically that going ddwfttw has been proven beyond doubt, and that the cart on a treadmill is part of that proof. I'm far more convinced the former is true than the latter, but I would-and have-bet money that you and spork et al are right. As the physics in play are mostly beyond me however, to be totally certain I would need to see visual proof. It still bothers me that none that I find at all convincing has been shown after all this time. :(

@Tom Booth: I suggest you do a search of RidgeRunners posts here about 2 years back. He made 2 small carts, and I doubt anyone would disagree that they were the most advanced to date. He was planning to test them on the ground and use smoke and balloons to show speed and direction. Sadly that was over 2 years ago and there's been no video.

My suspicion that the TM carts with their small props, light weight, and skinny tires could not exceed WS on the ground was given a major boost over 6 years ago at JREF. (This is where this thread had it's origin, though it appeared elsewhere as far back as '06.) There was a poster there (I Ratant) who set out to prove I and others wrong by filming his cart in a quite steady 20 mph wind. He made about 6 of these videos, on 2 different days, that he posted on YouTube. I won't go into all the details, but it became quite a story.

First IR released his cart, and then a bag of foam packing popcorn. I was astounded at how quickly the foam passed his cart and kept going for about 200 yards. It was easy to see the foam was going faster and going in the exact same direction as the cart.

Had say Humber done this I would have been more doubtful. But IR was a believer. His results were exactly the opposite of what he expected. So what was the reaction from the 'carteers?' They blamed it on all kinds of things that were wrong with his cart.

IR had some kind of run in with YT a few months later and deleted all his files. Besides the only outdoor tests ever shown of a small, remote controlled cart on the ground racing something visible and going close to WS, he also had about 20 videos of different model aircraft he had made, including many with cameras. This guy was definitely a well experienced model builder, and so I still wonder about the reaction to his cart. I can see one thing I think could be a factor, but it wasn't even mentioned in the attacks against him, so....

Glad to have someone else here who still has questions about this topic, Tom. Welcome to the jungle.

Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
For quite a while, humber was amazingly prolific. I discovered by the end of the original 'Zombie' thread that he had posted nearly 25% of all the replies. But given the rhetoric here I find it hard to grok why so many-the 75%-would bother to respond to such an 'idiot.' And of course this also applies now to HH.

I agreed with spork way back in '08 at JREF. It seemed to me it was all about leverage. I can't lift my truck but with a jack I can. What still makes me a bit uncertain is that so many with far more knowledge wrt the physics in play than I continue to respond to his 'madness,' and the fact I have never seen any visual proof of a cart going DDWFTTW. If only spork had dumped a bag of popcorn when he had exceeded WS, or RR had fulfilled his promise to show his cart doing so. That's all it would have taken.

Even a dunce like me has learned a lot following this debate over the last decade, and it doesn't surprise me Grins is the only one to point out the value of all the detours we've seen. So glad HH has revived this thread. And FX, of tides fame, accusing me of trolling was the best laugh I'd had all day. ;)

I continue to be befuddled by the utter certainty on both sides. I mean, think of all the examples of widely accepted science that was eventually proven wrong. Oh ye of too much faith.

Amazed at how many of the 'TR elite' are still here. Thought there'd be more Trump supporters given the overall gestalt. Glad to see you've maintained the security of the bubble. Interesting. I see Pence as an even bigger threat, so 3 more years of madness seems likely.
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
Actually, to my surprise Harold said it would keep advancing. If memory serves, his reason was somewhat similar to that of Heinz. Conversely I assumed it might well stop advancing once the kinetic energy attained holding the wheels down had run out, and then it would go backwards.

As I'm sure you know, I can't begin to grok all the physics involved in this discussion. I applaud your patience, and again ask forgiveness from those who've been irritated by my doubts.  :unsure:
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
Thanks for the reply, Grins. So glad to see you back. Your explanation is what I expected, and if IIRC Harold once claimed the cart would continue going forward even on an unending TM. I'm 95% sure you are right. But the absolute certainty expressed by you and most others here continues to amaze me. I mean, think of all the manor discoveries in science that were denied by the majority for quite a while, along with new claims hyped then later proven wrong.

I once offered I Retant $200 to send me a video of his cart going up a TM. His earlier videos of it going up against a bag of packing foam going ddw were only ones I've ever seen, and that lack of visual evidence will maintain my small doubts. This is especially true as I Ratant expected totally different results. He wasn't a denier. He was a very experienced model builder, specializing in planes and helicopters. That's why his videos still haunt my thinking. The foam clearly showed the cart was going DDW as the foam sailed by it.

I had hoped RR was going to erase them, but the steady wind season is over in Utah, so I've given up on that. I don;t have similar doubts about BB's exceeding ws, but still don't buy such a small prop with less weight and thus traction could do it.

Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind

Yes, you basically describe Galilean Relativity, and how the Cart cannot tell the difference between airmass moving vs. surface moving - only the relative velocities matter. That's the idea behind the controlled treadmill test.

What if you put the cart near the top of a 20 foot TM, (if there was one) and dropped on the belt from just an eight of an inch above it. Without the kinetic energy developed while holding the wheels on the moving belt, might not the cart go backwards all the way as I saw one do on a standard TM??
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
What a guy! Glad to see you back and still working on your bucket list, Grins.  :wave: