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Topic: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution (Read 487 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • socrates1
Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution

Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #1
Yep, some tyrannosaurs had more feathers than others. Note that from what I can tell from the news reports and commentary from various people the preserved integument comes from areas that is often scaled in living birds and in other theropods known to be feathered.

Did you have a point you wanted to make?
Why do I bother?

  • socrates1
Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #2
http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/13/6/20170092

The earliest feathers were simple hollow shafts and gradual innovations, including the development of the rachis, barbs and barbules, towards the fully formed flight feather were added in maniraptoran theropods and eventually birds [3,5].

Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #3
Yes? And? Is there some kind of point you're groping towards?
Why do I bother?

  • socrates1
Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #4
http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/13/6/20170092

The earliest feathers were simple hollow shafts and gradual innovations, including the development of the rachis, barbs and barbules, towards the fully formed flight feather were added in maniraptoran theropods and eventually birds [3,5].

Our results, therefore, reveal an intriguing counterintuitive pattern between size and integumentary evolution within Tyrannosauroidea that can only be tested by future fossil discoveries.
  • Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 08:58:51 AM by socrates1

Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #5
Do you know why they think it's counterintuitive? Care to explain this in your own words?
Why do I bother?

Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #6
literally couldn't care less.

next up, elephants are not mammals because they too have pebbly skin

Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #7
literally couldn't care less.

next up, elephants are not mammals because they too have pebbly skin
Its interesting in that Yutyrannus has extensive feathering, but Albertosaurus seems not to, and they're both about the same size. So something interesting is going on there.
Why do I bother?

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #8
Live! Dinosaur! Skin!


Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #9
  • Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 09:54:06 AM by DaveGodfrey
Why do I bother?

  • socrates1
Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #10
http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/13/6/20170092

The earliest feathers were simple hollow shafts and gradual innovations, including the development of the rachis, barbs and barbules, towards the fully formed flight feather were added in maniraptoran theropods and eventually birds [3,5].
However, widespread epidermal scales among Tyrannosauridae indicate that feather evolution was more complex than previously assumed and did not evolve in a purely progressive fashion across the whole of Coelurosauria; feathers had appeared in Dilong and Yutyrannus by the Hauterivian [1,8] but were apparently secondarily lost by the Albian. If, as some have posited [16], the integumentary structures such as those in Yutyrannus and Dilong are not feathers, then our findings still reveal notable changes within the integument of tyrannosauroids that require explanation.
  • Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 10:06:36 AM by socrates1

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #11
Nested self-quotes are back! :banana:

People who like to do nested self-quotes will be thrilled to learn the new forum software does not limit the depth of nesting.
(The old software automatically cut it off at six)
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • Monad
Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #12
literally couldn't care less.

next up, elephants are not mammals because they too have pebbly skin
Its interesting in that Yutyrannus has extensive feathering, but Albertosaurus seems not to, and they're both about the same size. So something interesting is going on there.

The map is not the territory

  • socrates1
Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #13
http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/13/6/20170092

The earliest feathers were simple hollow shafts and gradual innovations, including the development of the rachis, barbs and barbules, towards the fully formed flight feather were added in maniraptoran theropods and eventually birds [3,5].
However, widespread epidermal scales among Tyrannosauridae indicate that feather evolution was more complex than previously assumed and did not evolve in a purely progressive fashion across the whole of Coelurosauria; feathers had appeared in Dilong and Yutyrannus by the Hauterivian [1,8] but were apparently secondarily lost by the Albian. If, as some have posited [16], the integumentary structures such as those in Yutyrannus and Dilong are not feathers, then our findings still reveal notable changes within the integument of tyrannosauroids that require explanation.

If "the integumentary structures such as those in Yutyrannus and Dilong are not feathers" then the results the researchers found is not counterintuitive and there is no conflict within the evidence.


  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #14
Topic moved by me because our old friend (welcome back, Socrates!) is not complying with the 'discuss' aspect of the regular science forum.

Nested self quoting just annoys people, Socrates, it does not lend itself to discussion.

  • socrates1
Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #15
End of the line.

Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #16
literally couldn't care less.

next up, elephants are not mammals because they too have pebbly skin
Its interesting in that Yutyrannus has extensive feathering, but Albertosaurus seems not to, and they're both about the same size. So something interesting is going on there.

The map is not the territory
Indeed not, but if you have two species of roughly the same size, and one has extensive feathering and the other doesn't then at the very least "feather reduction is more complicated than we thought" is a pretty logical conclusion to draw, and that is interesting, even if the answer as to why that might be turns out to be unknowable, or as simple as "chance".
Why do I bother?

Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #17
http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/13/6/20170092

The earliest feathers were simple hollow shafts and gradual innovations, including the development of the rachis, barbs and barbules, towards the fully formed flight feather were added in maniraptoran theropods and eventually birds [3,5].
However, widespread epidermal scales among Tyrannosauridae indicate that feather evolution was more complex than previously assumed and did not evolve in a purely progressive fashion across the whole of Coelurosauria; feathers had appeared in Dilong and Yutyrannus by the Hauterivian [1,8] but were apparently secondarily lost by the Albian. If, as some have posited [16], the integumentary structures such as those in Yutyrannus and Dilong are not feathers, then our findings still reveal notable changes within the integument of tyrannosauroids that require explanation.

If "the integumentary structures such as those in Yutyrannus and Dilong are not feathers" then the results the researchers found is not counterintuitive and there is no conflict within the evidence.
Its still an integumentary structure that serves an function in insulation. So no, yet again you are fractally wrong.
Why do I bother?

  • Faid
Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #18
literally couldn't care less.

next up, elephants are not mammals because they too have pebbly skin
Its interesting in that Yutyrannus has extensive feathering, but Albertosaurus seems not to, and they're both about the same size. So something interesting is going on there.
End of the line.
Hi, "socrates".

Bye, "socrates".
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • Doobie Keebler
  • Ridiculous Callipygous
Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #19
socrates69 would have been a much cooler nick.
"You know what uranium is, right? It's this thing called nuclear weapons. And other things. Like lots of things are done with uranium. Including some bad things. Nobody talks about that."

  • Doobie Keebler
  • Ridiculous Callipygous
Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #20
Nested self-quotes are back! :banana:

MNS-QGA !
"You know what uranium is, right? It's this thing called nuclear weapons. And other things. Like lots of things are done with uranium. Including some bad things. Nobody talks about that."

  • Monad
Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #21
literally couldn't care less.

next up, elephants are not mammals because they too have pebbly skin
Its interesting in that Yutyrannus has extensive feathering, but Albertosaurus seems not to, and they're both about the same size. So something interesting is going on there.

The map is not the territory
Indeed not, but if you have two species of roughly the same size, and one has extensive feathering and the other doesn't then at the very least "feather reduction is more complicated than we thought" is a pretty logical conclusion to draw, and that is interesting, even if the answer as to why that might be turns out to be unknowable, or as simple as "chance".

That's my point, it implies their model is incomplete and the reality is more complex than the model accounts for (which is hardly surprising really given the lack of data)

Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #22
literally couldn't care less.

next up, elephants are not mammals because they too have pebbly skin
Its interesting in that Yutyrannus has extensive feathering, but Albertosaurus seems not to, and they're both about the same size. So something interesting is going on there.

The map is not the territory
Indeed not, but if you have two species of roughly the same size, and one has extensive feathering and the other doesn't then at the very least "feather reduction is more complicated than we thought" is a pretty logical conclusion to draw, and that is interesting, even if the answer as to why that might be turns out to be unknowable, or as simple as "chance".

That's my point, it implies their model is incomplete and the reality is more complex than the model accounts for (which is hardly surprising really given the lack of data)
They basically say that in the paper, and throw a few ideas out about why it might be the case.
Why do I bother?

  • Faid
Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #23
Couldn't it be something like climate conditions? Can we make any inferences on the type of environment Yutyrannus lived, for example, and whether it was colder than for Albertosaurus?
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #24
Doesn't appear to be colder according to the paper, but Yutyrannus is from a more forested environment, so they suggest they might be seeing something like we have in rhinos, where Indian and Sumatran rhinos are hairier than their relatives.
Why do I bother?

  • Fenrir
Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #25
Who knew feathers could be so complicated!!1!
It's what plants crave.

Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #26
http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/13/6/20170092

The earliest feathers were simple hollow shafts and gradual innovations, including the development of the rachis, barbs and barbules, towards the fully formed flight feather were added in maniraptoran theropods and eventually birds [3,5].

Our results, therefore, reveal an intriguing counterintuitive pattern between size and integumentary evolution within Tyrannosauroidea that can only be tested by future fossil discoveries.

What do you find controversial about counter-intuitive discoveries in science? Why do you think scientists do experiments? If our intuition was perfect, there would be no need for experiments. There are many ways are intuition can fail us, and these are mostly related to scale.
A human walks at a few kilometres per hour. Do you think that experience would guide our perception of how a photon travels at 300,000 kilometres per second?

Do you think our experience as complex animals with billions of cells makes our intuition of how a bacterium travels in water reliable? When we swim, water seems like a very thin, non-viscous fluid. Would that be the same for a bacterium, or would water seem like treacle? [Surface tension].

How is our intuitive feelings about evolution influenced by the fact that most of us don't even live for one full century? Most large changes in evolution can occur over thousands or millions of years. This makes our intuition about macro-evolution unreliable.

That is why science goes beyond our intuitive sense, because our intuitive sense is bound to our own time and dimension scales that are peculiar to us [humans], and not the universe generally.

Even the senses differ between species. We can't see like a hawk, or smell like a dog. Or see ultraviolet like some insects. Our senses and CNS are good enough to see the world with relative clarity at certain scales that is sufficient to aid survival, nothing more. To see the world with less bias, we need the tool of science.

Perhaps you should ponder that before you spiral off into "mystery ergo magic" speculations.

HTH.
  • Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 05:09:51 PM by puppy
Believer in High Powers, and naturally, logarithms.
Pikkiwoki is the one true god.

Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #27
Do old TR bans apply in the New TR?   Related question, can we invite Schneibster back?
While you were getting your PhD in virology, I got my PhD in truth detection. :wave:  Dave Hawkins

Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #28
Anyway, what actually happened to this socrates guy? At what point did he descent into nested self-quoting without ever bothering to actually discuss anything, and why does a person do something like that?

It's strange yet intriguing it it's own indication of psychosis way.
"At least you can fucking die and leave North Korea." - Christopher Hitchens

Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #29
Anyway, what actually happened to this socrates guy? At what point did he descent into nested self-quoting without ever bothering to actually discuss anything, and why does a person do something like that?

It's strange yet intriguing it it's own indication of psychosis way.
He's always been bonkers in a "Yes, Archaeopteryx was faked, yes I know how, no I won't tell you" kind of way.   I think he just kind of got tired of his insanity being challenge and just decided to lecture.   He had a personal Blogspot page at one point which hosted a play he had written called something like "When the Student is Ready, The Teacher Will Appear" where a PhD in Anthropology stays at his B&B and is shown the error of his ways by Doug's gentle teachings...     Truly bizarre....
While you were getting your PhD in virology, I got my PhD in truth detection. :wave:  Dave Hawkins

  • Doobie Keebler
  • Ridiculous Callipygous
Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #30
"You know what uranium is, right? It's this thing called nuclear weapons. And other things. Like lots of things are done with uranium. Including some bad things. Nobody talks about that."

Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #31
Goddamn it's like the boringest Chick Tract ever.

  • Monad
Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #32
Anyway, what actually happened to this socrates guy? At what point did he descent into nested self-quoting without ever bothering to actually discuss anything, and why does a person do something like that?

He's never discussed stuff, alway pontificated from 'on high' (probably thinks that literally) and avoided direct discussion or at most responded with ad hom jibes.

Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #33
Anyway, what actually happened to this socrates guy? At what point did he descent into nested self-quoting without ever bothering to actually discuss anything, and why does a person do something like that?

He's never discussed stuff, alway pontificated from 'on high' (probably thinks that literally) and avoided direct discussion or at most responded with ad hom jibes.
At one time he did attempt to discuss things, in his way...   His early days remind me a lot of Hawkins' style now, actually...
  • Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 06:09:37 AM by entropy
While you were getting your PhD in virology, I got my PhD in truth detection. :wave:  Dave Hawkins

Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #34
I'm pretty sure this is the Yann from the play. I'd love to hear his side of the story.

http://getahead.psu.edu/cv/CV_English_2013Dec_Anthropo.pdf

Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #35
I'm pretty sure this is the Yann from the play. I'd love to hear his side of the story.

http://getahead.psu.edu/cv/CV_English_2013Dec_Anthropo.pdf
Oh geeze.  Attended a conference in Peterbourgh Oct. 25-28th, 2006.  "Play" published three weeks later...   
While you were getting your PhD in virology, I got my PhD in truth detection. :wave:  Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Tyrannosauroid integument reveals conflicting patterns of gigantism and feather evolution
Reply #36
:rofl:
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins