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Topic: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World) (Read 104697 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23175
You're an idiot.

What I'm saying is that the system eliminates harmful pathogens so quickly and efficiently that there is no possible chance of getting a large enough concentration of harmful pathogens in anything downstream from the system.
Except that even Jenkins advocated to let the mature pile set for at least a year. That's why the toilet sort of using his system in Austin has two bins. One for active use, the other to allow the pile to do it's work.  That doesn't sound like quickly to me.
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23176
Let's move on from this water nonsense. 

Let's talk about land allocation.  Will someone please explain to me why we EVER started the practice of BUYING AND SELLING LAND?

This was a foreign concept to the Native Americans and it seems like a really ridiculous idea to me as well.
Because sometimes land is valuable. And sometimes what people do with it is valuable as well. Would you want to go and prepare a nice big garden and tend it and then have someone else come along and harvest it? Or maybe they want to build something there and so bulldoze it. How about if the land is not prized for its agricultural productivity but because it holds valuable minerals and ores or perhaps it's got a a great view or access to water for transportation or even consumption. Maybe it's a critical mountain pass or isthmus which allows the holder to charge passage fees.

How about I and some others come by and toss you off "your" land? Is that OK with you? Are you going to go peacefully or will we have to get violent?

That you don't understand any of this is indicative of your intellect and education. Or perhaps just your well known refusal to deal with reality.

In any case, it is the standing condition and simply wishing it away isn't going to work. You are not going to get any large tracts to do with what you like for free. There may be an occasional exception, but it's not a workable concept on a regional, national nor global scale.
Are we there yet?

  • JonF
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23177
You're an idiot.

What I'm saying is that the system eliminates [actually ... outcompetes] harmful pathogens so quickly and efficiently that there is no possible chance of getting a large enough concentration of harmful pathogens in anything downstream from the system.
Which, of course, is bullshit.
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23178
Let's move on from this water nonsense. 

Let's talk about land allocation.  Will someone please explain to me why we EVER started the practice of BUYING AND SELLING LAND?

This was a foreign concept to the Native Americans and it seems like a really ridiculous idea to me as well.
^^^^

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23179
Let's move on from this water nonsense. 

Let's talk about land allocation.  Will someone please explain to me why we EVER started the practice of BUYING AND SELLING LAND?

This was a foreign concept to the Native Americans and it seems like a really ridiculous idea to me as well.
^^^^
Except your insistence on allocating parcels of land to individuals/families is exactly what Native Americans for the most part did not do.

Agricultural communities mostly evaluated land based on what it was best used for - if it was good soil for planting, everybody planted in that area. If it was good flat ground for pueblo building, everyone built there.



No large acreage is going to be uniform throughout, except possibly on the prairies or in the arctic. The soils will vary, the percent of rock will vary, the terrain will vary, the forest will vary.

Inevitably, dividing land into little squares as you insist on thinking is correct will mean some people get better conditions and others get poorer conditions.

If you want community, you have to reject this top-down 'allocation' notion.


  • JonF
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23180
Let's move on from this water nonsense. 

Let's talk about land allocation.  Will someone please explain to me why we EVER started the practice of BUYING AND SELLING LAND?

This was a foreign concept to the Native Americans and it seems like a really ridiculous idea to me as well.
^^^^
#23176.
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23181
Will someone please explain to me why we EVER started the practice of BUYING AND SELLING LAND?
This was a foreign concept to the Native Americans
Painting with rather a broad brush there, aren't you?
It turns out "the Native Americans" covers an enormously diverse range of peoples, cultures and social organizations.
I haven't personally researched how each of them dealt with the issue of land use.
I rather doubt that you have, either.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23182
Let's move on from this water nonsense. 

Let's talk about land allocation.  Will someone please explain to me why we EVER started the practice of BUYING AND SELLING LAND?

This was a foreign concept to the Native Americans and it seems like a really ridiculous idea to me as well.
^^^^
Good idea Bluffy. Cut your losses before there's nothing left.

So .... ...

Run Bluffy, Run!!
Are we there yet?

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23183
Just exercising a little "google scholarship"...

Europe Meets America: Property Rights in the New World
Quote
One of the most enduring myths of the pre-European Americas is that the cultures were a kind of property-less Eden, in which various peoples existed in harmony with one another and with nature. Even a brief survey of the major pre-Columbian civilizations of the Inca, Aztec, Maya, and North American tribes quickly demonstrates that such a view neglects well-established customs that included recognizable forms of property in scarce resources, from weapons to hunting territories, as well as conflicts among tribes and other groups over control of territories.
[...]
In short, many if not all of the pre-contact residents had their own well-developed systems of property rights before the arrival of Europeans. Those property rights evolved in response to European contact, with new rights delineated as trade with the Europeans made previously undelineated rights valuable. Harold Demsetz's classic 1967 article, "Toward a Theory of Property Rights," for example, showed how rights to beaver pelts developed among North American tribes in response to the European demand for fur.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23184
Will someone please explain to me why we EVER started the practice of BUYING AND SELLING LAND?
This was a foreign concept to the Native Americans
Painting with rather a broad brush there, aren't you?
It turns out "the Native Americans" covers an enormously diverse range of peoples, cultures and social organizations.
I haven't personally researched how each of them dealt with the issue of land use.
I rather doubt that you have, either.
He is, and so was I to some extent. Land use varied broadly depending on which tribal culture, whether they mainly hunted ir were settled agriculturalists or lived from a mix, whether they lived on the plains, in the forests, or on the coasts. Property rights were extremely variable. Among agriculturalists there was often a traditional family right to specific pieces of arable land, and most often those families kept part of their produce but also gave part of it to the tribal leaders for distribution. Among hunting tribes there were specified territories, often clan territories.

The main point is that none of them just divided the land willy-nilly with no regard for what it was best suited for.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23185
I'm not suggesting "little squares" or "willy nilly" ...  I'm suggesting some sort of sensible allocation plan with at minimum the following assumptions .... (1) no tillage (2) rotational grazing of pastures (3) pollarding / TSI in woodland to provide a sustainable supply of animal fodder and firewood

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23186
Here's another pic of my 10 acres ...




Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23187
What I will probably end up doing is making a tiny "community" on my 10 acres, granting some sort of a deal to someone for the portion of the land just to the east of the tree line plus half of the woodland.   I myself will continue to manage my animals on the west side, and perhaps have a common area in the middle.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23188
Here's another pic of my 10 acres ...
So where's the border with the adjacent, "non-improved" land, so we can see the much claimed (but never supported) difference you've made? 
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23189
What I will probably end up doing is making a tiny "community" on my 10 acres, granting some sort of a deal to someone for the portion of the land just to the east of the tree line plus half of the woodland.   I myself will continue to manage my animals on the west side, and perhaps have a common area in the middle.

What will you do if that community decides to start tilling?

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23190
That's just an old satellite  image, taken who knows how many winters ago. I don't think dave meant it fro comparison.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23191
Here's another pic of my 10 acres ...
So where's the border with the adjacent, "non-improved" land, so we can see the much claimed (but never supported) difference you've made? 
This is about a 2 year old photo ...  if you took one right now the visual difference would be greater.

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23192
You're an idiot.

What I'm saying is that the system eliminates [actually ... outcompetes] harmful pathogens so quickly and efficiently that there is no possible chance of getting a large enough concentration of harmful pathogens in anything downstream from the system.
Which, of course, is bullshit.

Literally.

  • fredbear
  • Militantly Confused
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23193
Here's another pic of my 10 acres ...
So where's the border with the adjacent, "non-improved" land, so we can see the much claimed (but never supported) difference you've made? 
This is about a 2 year old photo ...  if you took one right now the visual difference would be greater.
Well that's weird. In the second screenshot he 'blue scribbled' the identifying road markers, but failed to do it in the first. I wonder why he went to that effort in the second image but not the first?

BTW, anyone can take 5 seconds and look at the google map images and see that his neighbor on the other side of the trees has a much greener area around their house, just to the right of his yellow line. and beyond that, on the east side of another band of trees, it's even greener. FWIW.
"...without considering any evidence at all - that my views are more likely - on average - to be correct.  Because the mainstream is almost always wrong" - Dave Hawkins

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23194
Here's another pic of my 10 acres ...




I thought we were talking about your thought experiment. You really need to stop running circles around us Bluffy.
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23195
What I will probably end up doing is making a tiny "community" on my 10 acres, granting some sort of a deal to someone for the portion of the land just to the east of the tree line plus half of the woodland.   I myself will continue to manage my animals on the west side, and perhaps have a common area in the middle.

What will you do if that community decides to start tilling?
He'll be pulling the plow with a couple of them manipulative bitches riding up top, encouraging him with their whips and sharp tongues.
Are we there yet?

  • Zombies!
  • Reaction Moderator
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23196
On my current property, the pond catchment area is uphill from dwellings but even if it were downhill it wouldn't matter because the Joe Jenkins composting toilet system is so efficient that there would be no possibility of contamination.
You are not using a Jenkins composting system.
This, and flooding.  
And now we take a quick break from our usual schedule of hoofwanking bunglecuntery to show you..

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23197
Here's a rabbit eye view of the westernmost swath of my pasture ... quite a nice diverse mix ... made so by animal pruning plus manure from goats and chickens.  And quite bit of rain.


  • Fenrir
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23198
Where's the diversity?

I see Fescue and Medicago.
It's what plants crave.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #23199
... quite a nice diverse mix ... made so by animal pruning plus manure from goats and chickens. 
As demonstrated by comparison with this view of directly adjacent land differing only in lacking animal pruning plus manure from goats and chickens. (i.e. the "control").

Oh. Wait. That would be reductionist science.

n/m
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins