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Topic: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drivers" (Read 201 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • ravenscape
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"Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drivers"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/flurry-of-state-bills-introduced-likely-backed-by_us_58a61008e4b026a89a7a2844

Ok, so Koch and oil companies are behind these bills.

Is there a reasonable argument to make that electric vehicle owners aren't paying their fair share of highway improvement and maintenance costs?

Is an annual fee the right way to recoup?

The amount someone is taxed via gasoline taxes is directly related to how much they drive/consume gasoline.  Is a flat fee fair?


  • osmanthus
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #1
Dunno about the situation over there, but over here most of the petrol tax doesn't actually go towards roads anyway.

But yeah there may be a legit point there about maintaining an equitable revenue base. Do the bills in question attempt to do that, or do they obviously penalise EV and hybrids excessively?
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #2
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/flurry-of-state-bills-introduced-likely-backed-by_us_58a61008e4b026a89a7a2844

Ok, so Koch and oil companies are behind these bills.

Is there a reasonable argument to make that electric vehicle owners aren't paying their fair share of highway improvement and maintenance costs?

Is an annual fee the right way to recoup?

The amount someone is taxed via gasoline taxes is directly related to how much they drive/consume gasoline.  Is a flat fee fair?


we charge trucks weight/mile fees for a reason.
Love is like a magic penny
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if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • osmanthus
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #3
we charge trucks weight/mile fees for a reason.
That's a bloody good point. It'd be logical to have cars charged on the same basis.
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  • ravenscape
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #4
Dunno about the situation over there, but over here most of the petrol tax doesn't actually go towards roads anyway.

But yeah there may be a legit point there about maintaining an equitable revenue base. Do the bills in question attempt to do that, or do they obviously penalise EV and hybrids excessively?

I dunno if it's excessive tbh.  But, sales of EVs fell 80% in Georgia when a $200 annual fee was added, though the discontinuance of a $5000 tax credit may have been more of a disincentive.

  • osmanthus
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #5
I'd say in that instance the 5 grand would have been the big issue. ;)
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  • ravenscape
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #6
California used to have incentives for buying electric/hybrid vehicles.  They were phased out.  I don't think the phase-out impacted sales to significant degree.  The incentives probably helped early adopters decide to take a chance when battery life was still a big question.

  • osmanthus
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #7
The problem with EV's over here is range. Everything is a long way from everywhere else. Hybrids are getting popular though, since their range is effectively unlimited and fuel costs are minimal.
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  • SkepticTank
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #8
Is there a reasonable argument to make that electric vehicle owners aren't paying their fair share of highway improvement and maintenance costs?
Absolutely.  In fact I think gasoline powered vehicles aren't paying their fair share either.  The tax is by the gallon and fuel efficiency has been increasing for years but the tax rate hasn't changed in decades.
Quote
Is an annual fee the right way to recoup?

The amount someone is taxed via gasoline taxes is directly related to how much they drive/consume gasoline.  Is a flat fee fair?

If we assume taxes are supposed to pay for maintaining roads & bridges it should be based on miles driven and the weight of the vehicle, but tracking miles driven would seen as a be a big-time privacy violation by some. 

Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #9
Is there a reasonable argument to make that electric vehicle owners aren't paying their fair share of highway improvement and maintenance costs?
Absolutely.  In fact I think gasoline powered vehicles aren't paying their fair share either.  The tax is by the gallon and fuel efficiency has been increasing for years but the tax rate hasn't changed in decades.
Quote
Is an annual fee the right way to recoup?

The amount someone is taxed via gasoline taxes is directly related to how much they drive/consume gasoline.  Is a flat fee fair?

If we assume taxes are supposed to pay for maintaining roads & bridges it should be based on miles driven and the weight of the vehicle, but tracking miles driven would seen as a be a big-time privacy violation by some. 

It could be given as a flat fee or a weight/mile tax depending on the drivers' preference. However, there is something toll-roadish and vaguely elitist about treating the commons that way.
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  • osmanthus
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #10
It could be given as a flat fee or a weight/mile tax depending on the drivers' preference.
In which case anyone doing a shitload of miles would chose the flat fee, and anyone doing bugger all miles would choose the weight/mile tax. :popcorn:


However, there is something toll-roadish and vaguely elitist about treating the commons that way.
And you could go ballistic about "welfare queens sucking at the public teat" with the present system, if it's not completely equitable with regard to system maintenance cost vs fee charged.
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #11
It could be given as a flat fee or a weight/mile tax depending on the drivers' preference.
In which case anyone doing a shitload of miles would chose the flat fee, and anyone doing bugger all miles would choose the weight/mile tax. :popcorn:


However, there is something toll-roadish and vaguely elitist about treating the commons that way.
And you could go ballistic about "welfare queens sucking at the public teat" with the present system, if it's not completely equitable with regard to system maintenance cost vs fee charged.
well, that's a progressive/regressive taxation question. The one thing about gas taxes is that, as a sales tax, it's only paid a little at a time so normal consumers don't recognize it as dramatic. If they had to pay it yearly, that would be an entirely different matter and would dramatically impact low income individuals' ability to drive at all.
Love is like a magic penny
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if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • osmanthus
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #12
If they had to pay it yearly, that would be an entirely different matter and would dramatically impact low income individuals' ability to drive at all.
Well actually it wouldn't, because they'd be paying the same amount. What you mean is that if given the choice they would spend the money on something else during the year, and then not be able to pay the annual bill. Under the current system they don't have the option to spend the money on something else.
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #13
If they had to pay it yearly, that would be an entirely different matter and would dramatically impact low income individuals' ability to drive at all.
Well actually it wouldn't, because they'd be paying the same amount. What you mean is that if given the choice they would spend the money on something else during the year, and then not be able to pay the annual bill. Under the current system they don't have the option to spend the money on something else.
um. right. It's a prepayment system that only affects you for each trip. Your reframing is kinda missing the point by a long ways even though you include the point. It had an oddly deliberate look to it also.  :hmm:
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • osmanthus
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #14
Just got off my metaphorical arse and read the HuffPo link.

Quote
The proponents of these EV fee bills argue that EVs are causing a drop in gas tax revenue. The gasoline tax was created in 1957 to create funding streams for projects such as roads, transit, and bridges. But the tax hasn't risen with inflation since 1993, so the revenue covers only a little more than 40 percent of project costs, causing states to search for their lost revenue. But, EVs aren't the correct source to replace this lost funding. Composing just a tiny slice U.S. auto sales, it is more fuel efficient conventional vehicles that account for a much bigger loss in gas tax funds.
Which pretty much answers my question "Do the bills in question attempt to do that, or do they obviously penalise EV and hybrids excessively?"

Since the new bills are only targeting EV's, they seem like a pretty clear case of fossil fuel interests exerting political pressure.
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  • osmanthus
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #15
If they had to pay it yearly, that would be an entirely different matter and would dramatically impact low income individuals' ability to drive at all.
Well actually it wouldn't, because they'd be paying the same amount. What you mean is that if given the choice they would spend the money on something else during the year, and then not be able to pay the annual bill. Under the current system they don't have the option to spend the money on something else.
um. right. It's a prepayment system that only affects you for each trip. Your reframing is kinda missing the point by a long ways even though you include the point. It had an oddly deliberate look to it also.  :hmm:
If the point is that a sensible system should take account of human foibles then no, I hadn't missed that. I was just pointing out that if either system assigned fees equitably the cost of either should be the same.

And you could argue that since people could save up the cash and get interest on it for a year, they should be better off with an annual fee. If you were an economist who made the mistake of assuming people were rational.
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  • ravenscape
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #16
Many of these new bills are.

But there is an underlying question about how highways should be equitably funded in a world where alternatives to combustion engines are gaining ground.

  • osmanthus
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #17
Yup, ultimately that will need to be dealt with, given that total decarbonisation of road transport is likely to happen.
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #18
If they had to pay it yearly, that would be an entirely different matter and would dramatically impact low income individuals' ability to drive at all.
Well actually it wouldn't, because they'd be paying the same amount. What you mean is that if given the choice they would spend the money on something else during the year, and then not be able to pay the annual bill. Under the current system they don't have the option to spend the money on something else.
um. right. It's a prepayment system that only affects you for each trip. Your reframing is kinda missing the point by a long ways even though you include the point. It had an oddly deliberate look to it also.  :hmm:
If the point is that a sensible system should take account of human foibles then no, I hadn't missed that. I was just pointing out that if either system assigned fees equitably the cost of either should be the same.

And you could argue that since people could save up the cash and get interest on it for a year, they should be better off with an annual fee. If you were an economist who made the mistake of assuming people were rational.

well, if you're broke, savings, however rational, are not an option. If you can't pay a $200 bill on your car every year, you probably are wiped out by unexpected situation on a fairly regular basis.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #19
the most obvious way is with weight/mile charges. Perhaps using tax credits to offset the burden for low income individuals or something.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • SkepticTank
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #20
Many of these new bills are.

But there is an underlying question about how highways should be equitably funded in a world where alternatives to combustion engines are gaining ground.

Same thing for rooftop solar for people who are still attached to the grid.

  • osmanthus
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #21
the most obvious way is with weight/mile charges. Perhaps using tax credits to offset the burden for low income individuals or something.
Or just say fuck it, and exempt private transport from road charges. Just put (non-crippling) fees on heavy transport, and make up any shortfall by ensuring your revenue is sufficient to cover infrastructure maintenance.
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #22
the most obvious way is with weight/mile charges. Perhaps using tax credits to offset the burden for low income individuals or something.
Or just say fuck it, and exempt private transport from road charges. Just put (non-crippling) fees on heavy transport, and make up any shortfall by ensuring your revenue is sufficient to cover infrastructure maintenance.
I would tend to agree with this if we could also make lanes specifically for freight transport. The movement of freight is a major component of local economies and it makes sense to privilege freight at least a little bit. Of course, that also requires a commitment to multi-modal transportation systems in urban environments. Those with significant sprawl would be substantially disadvantaged.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • osmanthus
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Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #23
the most obvious way is with weight/mile charges. Perhaps using tax credits to offset the burden for low income individuals or something.
Or just say fuck it, and exempt private transport from road charges. Just put (non-crippling) fees on heavy transport, and make up any shortfall by ensuring your revenue is sufficient to cover infrastructure maintenance.
I would tend to agree with this if we could also make lanes specifically for freight transport. The movement of freight is a major component of local economies and it makes sense to privilege freight at least a little bit. Of course, that also requires a commitment to multi-modal transportation systems in urban environments. Those with significant sprawl would be substantially disadvantaged.
Well, another thing would be to encourage more use of rail. It will move a lot more weight for the same amount of fuel.
Truth is out of style

Re: "Flurry Of State Bills Introduced, Likely Backed By Oil Industry, To Penalize Electric Car Drive
Reply #24
the most obvious way is with weight/mile charges. Perhaps using tax credits to offset the burden for low income individuals or something.
Or just say fuck it, and exempt private transport from road charges. Just put (non-crippling) fees on heavy transport, and make up any shortfall by ensuring your revenue is sufficient to cover infrastructure maintenance.
I would tend to agree with this if we could also make lanes specifically for freight transport. The movement of freight is a major component of local economies and it makes sense to privilege freight at least a little bit. Of course, that also requires a commitment to multi-modal transportation systems in urban environments. Those with significant sprawl would be substantially disadvantaged.
Well, another thing would be to encourage more use of rail. It will move a lot more weight for the same amount of fuel.
it's a part of a fully mixed modal transportation system. There are places rail doesn't go to and there are JIT considerations to truck travel.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor