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Topic: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally? (Read 4970 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • JonF
Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #75
Missouri! Where men are men and goats are nervous!
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

  • Pingu
Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #76
[snip bullshit "reasoning"]Therefore, it is likely that the Sahara was manmade



Dave, this is essentially your "argument", in all its glory:

The Sahara used to be green. When it was green it had herding societies. Humans often deforest lands to make room for pasture. Deforestation may lead to drier climates. Therefore, the Sahara is "likely" man-made.

In all honesty: Do you REALLLY not see any problems with that?

Nope.  And I'm sorry that you don't see the logic, but I must move on. Agriculture needs saving!

Well, take it from one who knows, Dave, that that logic is bullshit.  And if you are trying to use bullshit logic like that without even being able to see that it is bullshit logic, then you aren't going to have much success in Saving Agriculture.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • RexT
Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #77
Well, he seems to think his "legacy" is a bunch of writing in which he is "right" about stuff that is demonstrably wrong.

Yeah, that seems to be the consensus.

Dave represents a certain point of view, which is based on certain religious texts. He is being consistent with his beliefs and interpretation of said religious texts. It turns out that said religious texts are inconsistent with current data. But I have to give Dave some bit of credit. It can't be easy to support a text that provides only about 6,000 yrs to explain the whole world, especially up against scientists who are working with billions of years. Working with such limited resources, Dave has to lean heavily on his imagination to smooth out the gaping holes his religious texts present to any believer. His legacy isn't that he was right, but that he has a powerful imagination.

  • Pingu
Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #78
Well, he seems to think his "legacy" is a bunch of writing in which he is "right" about stuff that is demonstrably wrong.

Yeah, that seems to be the consensus.

Dave represents a certain point of view, which is based on certain religious texts. He is being consistent with his beliefs and interpretation of said religious texts. It turns out that said religious texts are inconsistent with current data. But I have to give Dave some bit of credit. It can't be easy to support a text that provides only about 6,000 yrs to explain the whole world, especially up against scientists who are working with billions of years. Working with such limited resources, Dave has to lean heavily on his imagination to smooth out the gaping holes his religious texts present to any believer. His legacy isn't that he was right, but that he has a powerful imagination.
Well, yes.  And actually I have some respect for (some) YEC "scientists" who start with a clear standpoint of faith, and try to find out why the world looks as though it is 4.5 billion years old when it cannot be older than 6,000.  But Dave doesn't do this.  He claims that the evidence supports YEC, and indeed that the evidence supports any other conclusion that he wants to come to. 

And to enable himself to do this, he is forced to conclude that everyone else is lying or stupid.  That's why I lost most of my respect for Dave.   But his misogyny was the last straw.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #79

4) There is evidence that forests actually help it rain more ... so removing forests may make it rain less


1. The more I study the more I lean.
2. The more I learn the more I know.
3. The more I know the more I can forget.
4. The more I can forget the more I will forget.
5. The more I forget the less I know.

Therefore the more I study the less I know.

Do you agree with that logic?
IF not then why do you use it?


  • RexT
Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #80
Well, yes.  And actually I have some respect for (some) YEC "scientists" who start with a clear standpoint of faith, and try to find out why the world looks as though it is 4.5 billion years old when it cannot be older than 6,000.  But Dave doesn't do this.  He claims that the evidence supports YEC, and indeed that the evidence supports any other conclusion that he wants to come to. 

And to enable himself to do this, he is forced to conclude that everyone else is lying or stupid.  That's why I lost most of my respect for Dave.  But his misogyny was the last straw.
Well, I didn't know all of that. That's pretty sad, really. People don't choose who they are, as you know. But, I can't have any respect for misogyny and such like minded prejudices.

  • Pingu
Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #81
Oh, I think people choose who they are :)

In fact, I think our choices define who we are as people.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #82
I've been wondering what the point of this thread is. What does Bluffy hope it will do? What does it matter if there are deserts that are currently greening naturally or there are none? Is Bluffy still in the mode of "if I can't see it happening, it can't happen"?
Are we there yet?

  • RexT
Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #83
Oh, I think people choose who they are :)

In fact, I think our choices define who we are as people.
I think you are using "choose" in a funny way then. You really think people choose to be straight or gay for instance? I mean, sure we can usually choose our actions, but not who we are.

  • Pingu
Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #84
I've been wondering what the point of this thread is. What does Bluffy hope it will do? What does it matter if there are deserts that are currently greening naturally or there are none? Is Bluffy still in the mode of "if I can't see it happening, it can't happen"?
We are at the point were me and Rex argue about free will :)
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #85
"Who we are" is not defined by our sexuality, orientation, or gender. I assume you don't think the personality, choices, beliefs, actions, interactions, hobbies, career choices, opinions, etc. of an individual are strictly a result of who they want to fuck.

Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #86
Keep going ... Northern Mali ... crocodiles ...

Quote
Throughout the desert, archaeologists and palaeontologists have documented skeletons of crocodiles in areas as unlikely as Algeria, Libya and northern Mali, proving that crocodiles roamed in a greener Sahara thousands of years ago. https://blog.britishmuseum.org/category/collection/african-rock-art/
Nobody is disputing that the Sahara was greener thousands of years ago.  In fact we've pointed to evidence that it was.

Your claim was that it is "largely man-made".  That is turned out to be wrong.
You don't know that it's wrong.  You don't have enough information.  It's statements like this that firm up my idea that you are either not honest, or you're not a very good scientist.  I don't have enough information either.  I don't have enough information to know - for sure - that the Sahara was manmade.  We're talking about ancient history here and we only have clues.  But the clues we have are as follows ...

1) Long time ago there was enough vegetation (including trees) to support large mammals
2) Less time ago there was enough vegetation to support herding societies
3) We know that a common human tendency is to DEFOREST to create cropland / pastureland
4) There is evidence that forests actually help it rain more ... so removing forests may make it rain less
5) Therefore, it is likely that the Sahara was manmade
6) As a bonus, Paul Ehrlich wrote that the Sahara was largely manmade in 1970 ... doesn't make it true, but adds to the support in favor of that view
Therefore? It appears you need to learn what that word means.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #87
Unwarranted conclusion. the Sahara is big enough to accommodate many ecosystems.

Indeed.

The area that Hawkins is fixated on is known to be exceptional: i.e. NOT typical of the Sahara desert on the whole.

This is among the objections that were raised in the previous thread, that Hawkins not only doesn't recognize as "valid", but apparently never even registered.
Exceptional huh?

I Googled "rock art ___________ " and put several different areas across the present day Sahara including NW Chad and SW Egypt and got results. 

You want me to keep Googling? 

Or would you like to STFU and quit pretending you know anything about this topic?
We'll gladly concede there's rock art of various dates all across the Sahara.

The subject is ecosystems.

As evinced by my use of the word "ecosystems" and not "rock art".

Duh.
lol
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • RexT
Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #88
We are at the point were me and Rex argue about free will :)
lol :)

Ok, let's do that in a separate thread. Last I knew you recognized free will as a kind of delusion. I'm still there. If you can convince me otherwise I'll give you whatever you want (within reason, of course). Bring it on!

  • RexT
Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #89
"Who we are" is not defined by our sexuality, orientation, or gender. I assume you don't think the personality, choices, beliefs, actions, interactions, hobbies, career choices, opinions, etc. of an individual are strictly a result of who they want to fuck.
Good assumption there. :yes:

Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #90
[snip bullshit "reasoning"]Therefore, it is likely that the Sahara was manmade



Dave, this is essentially your "argument", in all its glory:

The Sahara used to be green. When it was green it had herding societies. Humans often deforest lands to make room for pasture. Deforestation may lead to drier climates. Therefore, the Sahara is "likely" man-made.

In all honesty: Do you REALLLY not see any problems with that?

Nope.  And I'm sorry that you don't see the logic, but I must move on. Agriculture needs saving!
I hope other people here take as much pleasure from the art of this as I do.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #91
Oh, I think people choose who they are :)

In fact, I think our choices define who we are as people.
I think you are using "choose" in a funny way then. You really think people choose to be straight or gay for instance? I mean, sure we can usually choose our actions, but not who we are.
yeah. I tend to agree with you. I've noticed that it's a lot easier to claim that we choose who we are at times when our self confidence is highest. There are so many environmental factors that I am not sure it's all that meaningful a distinction.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #92
Freewill wouldn't or at least shouldn't apply in this case. Freewill refers to the freedom to make choices. Unless you are saying self identity is a choice. If you are, then I agree. For a Buddha, it is a choice.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • Pingu
Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #93
Freewill wouldn't or at least shouldn't apply in this case. Freewill refers to the freedom to make choices. Unless you are saying self identity is a choice. If you are, then I agree. For a Buddha, it is a choice.
Well, I think we are essentially choosing machines.  Some things we have virtually zero "degrees of freedom". Others we have lot.

I don't think "free will" is a delusion, unless by "free will" we mean what is sometimes called "libertarian free will".  In which case, I think it's not so much a delusion as an incoherent concept.  And a bad answer to an ill-posed question for which there isn't a good one.

I think a better question is "how free am I?" and I think the answer depends not so much on how we define "free" but how we define "I".  And I think that any sensible definition of "I" leads to the answer "really quite free, but with more degrees of freedom over some things than others, and probably a lot more than any other animal on earth".
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • RexT
Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #94
Well, I think we are essentially choosing machines.  Some things we have virtually zero "degrees of freedom". Others we have lot.
Yup, and in the case of who we are we have very little if any choice. I can't just choose to enjoy say beef or chicken liver, which I hate or dislike the taste of coffee, which I love. I can't choose to be homosexual, although I could choose to have homosexual sex. It would feel unnatural and revolting to me. A person can't choose to be a sociopath or a narcissist. They can however choose to behave as though they are not those things and really fool others.

Quote
I don't think "free will" is a delusion, unless by "free will" we mean what is sometimes called "libertarian free will".  In which case, I think it's not so much a delusion as an incoherent concept.  And a bad answer to an ill-posed question for which there isn't a good one.
I agree.

Quote
I think a better question is "how free am I?" and I think the answer depends not so much on how we define "free" but how we define "I".  And I think that any sensible definition of "I" leads to the answer "really quite free, but with more degrees of freedom over some things than others, and probably a lot more than any other animal on earth".
Well, you can define "I" any way you choose or to suit whatever purpose you have in mind. However, "I" is another kind of model the brain constructs and uses to generate a contrast, in this case between self and other. Consciousness requires contrast, this is not a choice.

Do you think there is any degree of freedom the brain has to construct the "I" model? It must construct this model, else it could not distinguish between self and other. But apparently a brain has the freedom to embellish it's model of self. Can a person's brain so delude itself as to convert a non believer into a believer of god, or convert from gay to straight, or convert from a loather of liver to a lover of liver? Just a few of examples, there are countless others, where there is no real degree of freedom, at least not something the conscious mind can achieve.


  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #95
Quote
Can a person's brain so delude itself as to convert a non believer into a believer of god, or convert from gay to straight, or convert from a loather of liver to a lover of liver? Just a few of examples, there are countless others, where there is no real degree of freedom, at least not something the conscious mind can achieve.
Pingu is the expert here, but imo Some of These Things are Not Like the Others. A whole stew of physiological/neurological things are more or less involved in whether one is gay/straight/transgendered.  I think god beliefs, political beliefs, food likes and dislikes are on a different plane entirely, involving upbringing, life experience, multiple external factors.

I loathed a lot of different foods when I was young. I went hungry for a while and my food likes expanded enormously, and later with experiment, broadened even more. Some foods I used to like but no longer care for. I used to believe in god, now I don't, but I'm self aware enough to understand that it would take very little to convince myself to return to belief. My political leanings changed over time, back and forth. My world views have shifted greatly, and in various directions.

I think most things can be a matter of choice. Perhaps the experiences that lead to choices preclude many choices, but among those that remain available, choices can be made.

  • Pingu
Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #96
Quote
"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." - Dumbledore

I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • RexT
Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #97
Pingu is the expert here, but imo Some of These Things are Not Like the Others. A whole stew of physiological/neurological things are more or less involved in whether one is gay/straight/transgendered.  I think god beliefs, political beliefs, food likes and dislikes are on a different plane entirely, involving upbringing, life experience, multiple external factors.
Yes, these things are all different, but what they have in common is that neither is a conscious choice, ever.

Quote
I loathed a lot of different foods when I was young. I went hungry for a while and my food likes expanded enormously, and later with experiment, broadened even more. Some foods I used to like but no longer care for. I used to believe in god, now I don't, but I'm self aware enough to understand that it would take very little to convince myself to return to belief. My political leanings changed over time, back and forth. My world views have shifted greatly, and in various directions.
You're providing evidence in support of my view. As you note, you changed, for various reasons, none of which was by conscious choice. One cannot merely will oneself to be something one is not already.

Quote
I think most things can be a matter of choice. Perhaps the experiences that lead to choices preclude many choices, but among those that remain available, choices can be made.
Well, as Lizzie stated, "we are choosing machines". So what? We make choices. But so too does the moth choose to go into the light. It's hardly free will. What we are is determined mostly by the genetics, I think, and to a lesser extent by the environment.

How many times have you done something and were surprised perhaps even shocked by the choice you made? It's moments like those where you start to realize we cannot simply choose to be other than we were born to be. And should we be different at some future time, it will not be on account of merely wanting to be different, but will ever be determined by the stuff that actually exists, genetics and environment.

There is still this uncanny sense that there is an I and I has desires, free will. Alas, there is no real material "I". Lizzie knows this. The sense of "I" (self) is merely a mental construct, a model if you like. It is not a real thing. By way of analogy compare the brain/mind to computer/software. If you are familiar with computers this analogy makes it pretty easy to see how the "I" could be simulated by software, even if no one has yet found the right algorithms to actually do it. Even without much knowledge of computers, one can discern the difference between the real and the artificial parts. We are choosing machines, said Lizzie. So too are computers choosing machines. But neither has the choice to change what they really are.

  • Pingu
Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #98
Not all "real" things are "material", and a mental construct is not "merely" a mental construct - it's a mental construct.  There is more to reality than stuff that has mass.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • RexT
Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #99
Quote
"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." - Dumbledore


You are quoting  J. K. Rowling (Harry Potter). Okay, so I say the quote is wrong since our choosing at all is first determined by our abilities. Only one of our abilities is the ability to choose things. So what does that say about us that cannot also be said of a computer?

I'm really wondering if we are talking past each other or if there is a real disagreement between us.