Skip to main content

TR Memescape

  • TalkRational: Questionable content, potentially containing dismissiveness.

Topic: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data (Read 1482 times) previous topic - next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #75
Such persuasive eloquence!
I'm not trying to persuade you.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #76
Nonsense.  What I mentioned is still right there.  No need to lie about it.
The extensive research Blue Hill has done with the data does show how the new electronic sensors bias the data, but it makes the daytime high higher, not lower.  Because the electronic sensors will record very brief transient highs, the ASOS data records a brief warm event as the daily high, which means the Tmax data from the new equipment has a warm bias, which of course makes the daily mean higher.

So the data should be adjusted down, but that is not what they do.  Blue Hill uses both the original equipment and the new sensors, and compares the results. The true believer could care less, but in science belief isn't what really matters.
The "transient" high temps are from wind and hot surfaces (pavement, runways, parking lots), which change the respiration fan efficiency, and since the heat shield depends on that circulation to prevent spikes from such an event, it's a known problem.

Cold conditions do not suffer from "transient" cold events, you dumb ass.  There is a cold bias, but for a different reason.

But hell, we know facts are the last thing that will matter.


No transient lows he says!  Magic!

Makes no sense to me. The Blue Hill Observatory uses the Davis Pro 2 temperature, humidity, rain, and solar sensors.
Here is the data sheet

The response is very flat across the range  -40° to +150° F (-40° to +65° C) with an update interval of 10 seconds.

I don't see anything that would prevent it from recording high and low transients with equal fidelity.
So, I don't see a valid argument against transient lows being recorded based on the instrument used.

Is FX claiming that transient lows just do not occur in nature? No such thing as a cold gust of wind? :dunno:



Where are the damn balloons?

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #77
Makes no sense to me. The Blue Hill Observatory uses the Davis Pro 2 temperature, humidity, rain, and solar sensors.

Is FX claiming that transient lows just do not occur in nature? No such thing as a cold gust of wind? :dunno:
I am repeating what the research on the ASOS sensors shows.  Transient high readings are a problem.  There is no mention of the same problem with "transient lows", whatever that means.

Wind is not a problem for the sensor set up at low temps.  (if it was the system would be worthless)

It's like you can't imagine the design was to make sure wind does not change the air temp readings.  Or something.  Nobody knows, since you just make shit up.
  • Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 07:31:14 PM by F X
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • SR-71
  • Schmewbie
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #78
What?  They  forgot to put the part about the airport in there.  Those idiots!

You're telling me they use passive shield instead of aspirated shield?  Why are they being so cheap?  From the way you talk they're supposed to be some kind of benchmark.
  • Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 04:10:35 PM by SR-71

  • SR-71
  • Schmewbie
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #79
Is FX claiming that transient lows just do not occur in nature? No such thing as a cold gust of wind? :dunno:

That seems to be the case.  He suffers from conflation of issues. 

First, it was that the electronic sensor registers dTemp/dTime at a sharper slope than mercury.  OK, fine.  If so, then it will work the same for Tmax or Tmin. 

Second, it seems that only man made high "transients" count, or that there are no natural low temp transients.  Ok, fine, but that's the old Urban Heat Island issue, nothing to do with properties of the thermometer, otherwise his argument would apply equally to fleeting high or low temps being recorded.

Third, he points to the spec sheet of the Davis unit as evidence that the high bias is because of the warm transients.  Well, no.  The spec sheet shows a "Radiation induced temperature error", in other words, error caused by the housing, or "shield", heating up in the sun in the afternoon.  This will happen no matter where the station is located. 

He's confused, the way he does, ya know. 


  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #80
Is FX claiming that transient lows just do not occur in nature? No such thing as a cold gust of wind? :dunno:

That seems to be the case.  He suffers from conflation of issues. 
Hahaha now that is funny.

I simply read every paper on the matter and then shared some info that is known about ASOS systems.  I was first clued to this back when I talked to a climatologist/meteorologist, who has run a COOP station and a NOAA station for 50 years now.  There are COOP stations that still use the old equipment (and the NOAA required as well).  Not just Blue Hill.  There are multiple stations that have complete records with the same equipment, as well as the new automated stations, so we can compare the two.  None of this is any mystery.

The automated stations are crap for climate data.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #81
The "extreme" swings in annual data that start showing up after ASOS was required for climate stations are interpreted by idiots as "the climate is becoming more extreme" when in fact it is measurement errors.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • SR-71
  • Schmewbie
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #82
The "extreme" swings in annual data that start showing up after ASOS was required for climate stations are interpreted by idiots as "the climate is becoming more extreme" when in fact it is measurement errors.

Here's the old if you don't like the readings blame the instrument manuever.  So predictable. 

  • SR-71
  • Schmewbie
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #83
Is FX claiming that transient lows just do not occur in nature? No such thing as a cold gust of wind? :dunno:

That seems to be the case.  He suffers from conflation of issues. 
Hahaha now that is funny.

I simply read every paper on the matter and then shared some info that is known about ASOS systems.  I was first clued to this back when I talked to a climatologist/meteorologist, who has run a COOP station and a NOAA station for 50 years now.  There are COOP stations that still use the old equipment (and the NOAA required as well).  Not just Blue Hill.  There are multiple stations that have complete records with the same equipment, as well as the new automated stations, so we can compare the two.  None of this is any mystery.

The automated stations are crap for climate data.


Here's the usual I am a great authority and you are as bugs under my feet spiel.   Won't someone spare a thought for all the hiring authorities at our great scientific institutions who can't find competent, qualified personel because they are all too busy writing blogs or holding court on chat forums. 

Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #84

I am repeating what the research on the ASOS sensors shows.  Transient high readings are a problem.  There is no mention of the same problem with "transient lows", whatever that means.

Wind is not a problem for the sensor set up at low temps.  (if it was the system would be worthless)

It's like you can't imagine the design was to make sure wind does not change the air temp readings.  Or something.  Nobody knows, since you just make shit up.


The "transient" high temps are from wind and hot surfaces (pavement, runways, parking lots), which change the respiration fan efficiency, and since the heat shield depends on that circulation to prevent spikes from such an event, it's a known problem.

So, it is only Hot winds that cause transient High Temp readings but the design shields the sensor from Cold winds?

You say you are repeating what the research shows. Why not link to this research so we can all read it for ourselves?
Where are the damn balloons?

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #85
You say you are repeating what the research shows. Why not link to this research so we can all read it for ourselves?
Because I don't like you.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #86
So, it is only Hot winds that cause transient High Temp readings but the design shields the sensor from Cold winds?
It is not as you are describing it.  Strong winds interfere with the fan that moves air in the sensor housing. This does not matter when it is cold.  Think about it.  If strong winds during a winter storm caused a cold bias the sensor unit/design would be worthless.  It matters when it is hot because the fan is there to prevent exactly what happens when the shields heat up. The older design of a screened box is to prevent the direct sun from causing a false high reading.

You don't want a large shaded area to mess with the actual air temperature, But you can't place a thermometer in direct sun either.  You want a measurement of the air temperature.  Not the sun heating up a surface. Large runways and paved surfaces are a real bad area to measure the air temps at 2 meters.

But, large surfaces like that also cause a cooling bias on clear nights, so location matters as much as the bias from the ASOS design.  It's why the climate stations are designed with three sensors in different configurations, to try and get rid of the problems with modern climate stations.  It is also why climate stations are not near large artificial surfaces.
  • Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 04:31:36 AM by F X
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • SR-71
  • Schmewbie
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #87
When did they start using the sensors?  Did they throw the old instruments away the same day or did they compare readings for a while?  Is there a warm bias discontinuity in the Blue Hill record contemporaneous with the implementation of the electronic sensors?

 

  • SR-71
  • Schmewbie
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #88
When did they start using the sensors?  Did they throw the old instruments away the same day or did they compare readings for a while to check for agreement?  Is there a warm bias discontinuity in the Blue Hill record contemporaneous with the implementation of the electronic sensors?

 

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #89
When did they start using the sensors?  Did they throw the old instruments away the same day or did they compare readings for a while?  Is there a warm bias discontinuity in the Blue Hill record contemporaneous with the implementation of the electronic sensors?
I covered this before, regarding Dale Enterprise, another COOP station that still uses the original equipment along with the required AWOS system.

http://talkrational.org/archive/showthread.php?t=66943

I actually downloaded the monthly and annual data to check for myself.  The new sensor had a warm bias.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • SR-71
  • Schmewbie
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #90
That whole thing was bullshit, just like this.  The other posters sunk your battleship. 

Still waiting for the Blue Hill raw data discontinuity. 

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #91
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • SR-71
  • Schmewbie
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #92
I don't see anything about a big problem with warm bias, except in the one where they identify "frost pockets", IOW radiative lows, aka "transient lows".

Quote
During radiational cooling, warm air is lost to the atmosphere and cools. This forms a temperature inversion, where the denser, colder air then settles into the exposed areas at the lower elevations, creat- ing what are often referred to as frost pockets. On this evening, the average minimum tem- perature of Raup's seven stations was -18.6°F (-28.1°C), yet the range extended from a high of -7.5°F (-21.9°C) near the former greenhouse located at the Bussey Institution (now the site of the Massachusetts State Lab) to a low of -26°F (-32.2°C) in the shrub collection (now the home of the Bradley Rosaceous Collection). The flat area south of the Bussey Hill summit (now called the Explorers Garden) experienced a minimum temperature of -16.9°F (-27.2°C).

You're conflating the issues of microclimate, which include UHI but also "frost pockets" with an instrumentation issue which really isn't a problem.  See, you are not the first genius to find that there are some slight differences between the way fluid filled thermometers and electronic instrumentation measure things.  Grown ups, like legitimate meteorologists and associated climate related disciplines find a way to deal with the issue, but you throw up your hands like a babby and rend your garments over it. 

That's mostly because your goal isn't to understand anything better, but just to spread doubt and uncertainty in the vulnerably feeble minded. 

  • SR-71
  • Schmewbie
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #93
Frost pocket.  Sounds suspiciously like a transient low. 
  • Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 05:55:47 AM by SR-71

  • SR-71
  • Schmewbie
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #94

Also missing is anything where they cite warm bias attributable to the sensors themselves.  If there is any comparison of the old thermometers to the current sensors, I didn't find it.

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #95
missing is anything where they cite warm bias attributable to the sensors themselves.  If there is any comparison of the old thermometers to the current sensors, I didn't find it.
There are studies on this issue.  The difference is small enough not to matter.  Electronic sensors record transient changes, and require calibration, and degrade over time, but for the most part the difference in the actual reading is close enough.  The matter is the housing and set up of the station, not in the actual electronic sensor.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #96
Grown ups, like legitimate meteorologists and associated climate related disciplines find a way to deal with the issue

Sure thing.  I mean it's not like these grown ups ever got anything wrong before or anything like that.  And they certainly do always "find a way to deal with" any issue at all.

Quote
but you throw up your hands like a babby and rend your garments over it.

:staregonk:

Quote
the vulnerably feeble minded.

:stare:

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #97
 :parrot:
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #98
:ironicat:

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Annual Blue Hill Observatory Climate Data
Reply #99
Here's the old if you don't like the readings blame the instrument manuever.  So predictable. 
They actually blame TOBs, location changes, and changes in equipment to explain away the extremely obvious problem with weather stations that simply show that there has been no warming.  In fact, many long term records show cooling.  With the natural climate cycles clearly evident in the actual real data.


"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭