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Topic: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group (Read 9212 times) previous topic - next topic

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Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1275
Hey I just found a nifty page on the Sauk sequence. It has pictures, so Dave won't have to read any Reverse Swahili Pig Latin.

This one shows southwestern Colorado at the peak of the marine transgression. IOW, the edge of the water here is also the limit of the Tapeats in that area. The red circle is Baker's Bridge.

And this one shows the North American and Canadian areas covered by the complete Sauk sequence.

IOW, this would be the limits of any Tapeats-equivalent layers in that part of the world.

Didn't we go through this whole goat rope with Davie-dip and the St. Peter sandstone?  You saw how much he learned out of that one.

  • osmanthus
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Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1276
And this is the same area at the peak of the Kaskaskia transgression.

Truth is out of style

  • osmanthus
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Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1277
Didn't we go through this whole goat rope with Davie-dip and the St. Peter sandstone?  You saw how much he learned out of that one.
I thought they were interesting shots. :) And it appears to be a bloody good blog too.

Also, this is the first map I've seen of the complete Sauk that doesn't come from a creo site.
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  • borealis
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Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1278
Traditionally they have approached it by putting the bullshit obfuscation in the sciency words. They have extrapolated from Genesis, but they haven't directly contradicted it. For instance, God says he will destroy the world, so they can happily make their Flood as destructive as they like. No problem.

This is a new level of desperation on their part. It doesn't depend on truthy scienciness. If the Bible says God made life in the ocean on the fifth day, and if AiG says he did it on the second day, any five year old with an average brain is likely to wonder why AiG says the Bible is wrong.

Never said they were clever. You're correct about the desperation. But they (or some/many of them) don't believe in 'Flood science' themselves, and all they really do is devise what a friend and I used to call a Theory of the Month. It was a game we played, where we would alternately put forth an outrageous theory and then defend it, using as much 'real' science as we could think of, over wine and food as if it was real. It was hilarious good fun. AIG and the like play that game for real. Stromatolites just threw a monkey wrench into the general easy peasy write something sleazy lazy round of making shit up. So somebody made some shit up without even considering the heretical nature of the argument. These guys are not theologians, and don't really understand the implications. Which isn't surprising, seeing how fast and loose Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are with standard theology in the first place.

  • osmanthus
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Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1279
I think they'll end up retracting this one, and will have to file it away with the baboon dogs.
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  • osmanthus
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Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1280
Does anyone know where there is a global map of the Great Unconformity? I know it exists in various places around the world. I also know that, unlike what the creos like to pretend, it doesn't exist everywhere in the world. So I'm curious to know where it can be found, but am having difficulty finding a map of it.
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Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1281
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You have to realise that AIG and the other creo 'science' entities aren't really intending to do 'science', nor are they writing for people who accept mainstream science as the bet knowledge we currently have. They are writing to shore up the faith of the doubters in the ordinary creo churches. Those are people with the barest grasp of even the science of everyday life. Just knowing there are 'smart' people with letters after their names somewhere working to back up the Word of the Lord is comforting. They don't need to understand it. They just need to know it's there.

Dave's an outlier, because he wants to spread the word and sound smart while doing it.
I understand that, but IMO it only reinforces the point. The target audience likes the Genesis story because it's clear and simple. God spent six days making things, and he did it in an orderly fashion. As you say, they find it comforting.

Although AiG has no interest in doing science as such, they do write their articles for their target audience, and they do expect them to be read. Consequently, it seems to me that directly attacking the core mythology that they rely on is a very risky approach. If I were in their shoes, and thought it necessary to come up with a bullshit obfuscation for Archaen stromatolites, and particularly if I was working for an organisation that calls itself "Answers in Genesis", I would not choose an approach that basically says Genesis is wrong.
They know their audience is not good at the evaluation that's necessary to detect bullshit obfuscation. They read it, they see it contains science words, it supports their position, therefore it's true. End of story. It never occurs to them to compare it to any other knowledge or reality.

Viz. our Davie.
I.e. people with PhD 's in "truth detection".
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1282
This is weird.

I just went to AIG to check out the stromatolite article.  Hadn't been there in some time and found

1.  AIG now requires you to create an account with them to view articles.  You can log in with Facebook or Twitter but the software still creates your own account and tries to spam your email with AIG crap
2. I signed in with Facebook, created the account, searched for "stromatolites" and found a new article (Sept 1 2017) titled "Stromatolites--Rare Reminders of a Lost World".  However when I selected the link I got a message "Access to this content is restricted. Please enter an unlock code to view the content." and a box to enter an unlock code which I don't have.

Anyone else have the same experience?  Is this their way of hiding the new heretical article?

Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1283
He thinks you're a fuckwit.
Yes I know but he's still my buddy because he's a catastrophist.

So, since he is explaining the mainstream in geology, they are all your buddies?
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1284
I think they'll end up retracting this one, and will have to file it away with the baboon dogs.
Baboon dogs. There's a blast from the past.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • osmanthus
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Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1285
This is weird.

I just went to AIG to check out the stromatolite article.  Hadn't been there in some time and found

1.  AIG now requires you to create an account with them to view articles.  You can log in with Facebook or Twitter but the software still creates your own account and tries to spam your email with AIG crap
2. I signed in with Facebook, created the account, searched for "stromatolites" and found a new article (Sept 1 2017) titled "Stromatolites--Rare Reminders of a Lost World".  However when I selected the link I got a message "Access to this content is restricted. Please enter an unlock code to view the content." and a box to enter an unlock code which I don't have.

Anyone else have the same experience?  Is this their way of hiding the new heretical article?
I saw that article you mention is locked. Tried to access it the other day, but CBF'd making an AiG account. The article I was referring to is this one: https://answersingenesis.org/biology/microbiology/survey-of-microbial-composition-and-mechanisms-of-living-stromatolites-of-the-bahamas-and-australia/
Truth is out of style

Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1286
This is weird.

I just went to AIG to check out the stromatolite article.  Hadn't been there in some time and found

1.  AIG now requires you to create an account with them to view articles.  You can log in with Facebook or Twitter but the software still creates your own account and tries to spam your email with AIG crap
2. I signed in with Facebook, created the account, searched for "stromatolites" and found a new article (Sept 1 2017) titled "Stromatolites--Rare Reminders of a Lost World".  However when I selected the link I got a message "Access to this content is restricted. Please enter an unlock code to view the content." and a box to enter an unlock code which I don't have.

Anyone else have the same experience?  Is this their way of hiding the new heretical article?
I saw that article you mention is locked. Tried to access it the other day, but CBF'd making an AiG account. The article I was referring to is this one: https://answersingenesis.org/biology/microbiology/survey-of-microbial-composition-and-mechanisms-of-living-stromatolites-of-the-bahamas-and-australia/


Thanks.  Still curious they have locked articles unless they really don't want anyone to see them.  Too embarrassing I suppose.

  • osmanthus
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Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1287
Now I'm wondering why they are so desperate to hide it. And where you get this mysterious unlock code from. It's almost like they are doing a Scientology trip and making stromatolites their Xenu. :grin:
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Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1288
Now I'm wondering why they are so desperate to hide it. And where you get this mysterious unlock code from. It's almost like they are doing a Scientology trip and making stromatolites their Xenu. :grin:

You have to have a subscription to their magazine "Answers." That includes an "access code."

  • osmanthus
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Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1289
Yep, I just went looking and you're right. Paid access only. It'd almost be worth the $20 for the laughs, but I'd be reluctant to pay for Ham's expense account.
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  • osmanthus
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Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1290
I think they'll end up retracting this one, and will have to file it away with the baboon dogs.
Baboon dogs. There's a blast from the past.
:cheer:  :happydance:  :clap:  :parrot:  :drunk:  :banana:  :donkeykong:  :nyan:

Quote
Short spine

In this mutant, the entire backbone of the dog is shortened, but the legs and skull are normal. Such mutations kill most dogs, with an interesting exception being the female Baboon dog. The male Baboon dog dies before reaching maturity, so it should be obvious that this breed has not got much going for it.
Baboon dogs are still on the AiG site!
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  • osmanthus
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Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1291
Ha! Turns out that article is lying about St. Bernards too.

Quote
The only dog mutant which comes anywhere near qualifying as useful (from the dog's point of view) is found in that big lovable St. Bernard.

It suffers from hyperthyroidism, which means that its overactive thyroid gland enables it to turn food into body heat at an incredible rate, not by choice, but by compulsion. His feet can sometimes be so hot they can melt the snow around him.
Wiki doesn't mention hyperthyroidism as a problem for the breed - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bernard_%28dog%29#Health

Quote
...very serious deterioration of the bones if the dog does not get proper food and exercise...hip dysplasia or elbow dysplasia. Osteosarcoma (bone cancer) has been shown to be hereditary in the breed...susceptible to eye disorders called entropion and ectropion...also susceptible to epilepsy and seizures, a heart disease called dilated cardiomyopathy, and eczema...genetically related polyneuropathy...
But, no hyperthyroidism.
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  • Fenrir
Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1292
Ha! Turns out that article is lying about St. Bernards too.

Quote
The only dog mutant which comes anywhere near qualifying as useful (from the dog's point of view) is found in that big lovable St. Bernard.

It suffers from hyperthyroidism, which means that its overactive thyroid gland enables it to turn food into body heat at an incredible rate, not by choice, but by compulsion. His feet can sometimes be so hot they can melt the snow around him.
Wiki doesn't mention hyperthyroidism as a problem for the breed - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bernard_%28dog%29#Health

Quote
...very serious deterioration of the bones if the dog does not get proper food and exercise...hip dysplasia or elbow dysplasia. Osteosarcoma (bone cancer) has been shown to be hereditary in the breed...susceptible to eye disorders called entropion and ectropion...also susceptible to epilepsy and seizures, a heart disease called dilated cardiomyopathy, and eczema...genetically related polyneuropathy...
But, no hyperthyroidism.

That's why they use dachshunds instead for rescues on the Eiger. That and the cute harnesses.
It's what plants crave.

  • osmanthus
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Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1293
Hey this is amazing. "Baboon dog syndrome" actually exists!

This page started me off: https://animalfeasance.com/2014/05/22/baboon-dog-syndrome/

And a bit of searching led to this page: https://www.thedodo.com/short-spines-1540120425.html

But don't worry. AiG is still wrong, so all is right with the world. For a start, it's not a breed at all. It's apparently a random mutation that can affect any breed. Second, male dogs affected by it seem to be as healthy as female dogs affected by it.
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  • borealis
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Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1294
Hey this is amazing. "Baboon dog syndrome" actually exists!

This page started me off: https://animalfeasance.com/2014/05/22/baboon-dog-syndrome/

And a bit of searching led to this page: https://www.thedodo.com/short-spines-1540120425.html

But don't worry. AiG is still wrong, so all is right with the world. For a start, it's not a breed at all. It's apparently a random mutation that can affect any breed. Second, male dogs affected by it seem to be as healthy as female dogs affected by it.

Lol. I wondered what you were on about, having seen a video of Pig the Baboon dog a few months ago. The condition also can turn up in wolves, foxes, horses and mice.

  • osmanthus
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Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1295
It's an old in-joke dating from a decade or so back. Read the bit I quoted. AiG has had that article up for ages, and it claims there is a breed of dog called the "Baboon dog" and that the male Baboon dog dies before reaching maturity.

I'm sure you can see the problem here. ;) AiG apparently cannot see it.
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  • borealis
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Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1296
Ah, I see. Yeah, not a breed, and who knows where they got the 'male dies' bit. They aren't big on checking their sources though - maybe they Hawkins-read everything.

  • osmanthus
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Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1297
Whoopee! Here's something else God would have had to make on Day 2 - Francevillian biota!

I hadn't heard of these critters before. They're far more complex than, and a lot larger than, the cynaobacteria that make stromatolites, and they're far older than the Edicaran fauna. The evidence indicates that they were probably aerobic organisms, because they're absent from anoxic layers. At the moment it's not certain if they were eukaryotes or prokaryotes, or if they were genuinely multicellular or simply colonial. There is some evidence for them being eukaryotes. There's an open access paper available:

The 2.1 Ga Old Francevillian Biota: Biogenicity, Taphonomy and Biodiversity

Quote from: Abstract
The Paleoproterozoic Era witnessed crucial steps in the evolution of Earth's surface environments following the first appreciable rise of free atmospheric oxygen concentrations ∼2.3 to 2.1 Ga ago, and concomitant shallow ocean oxygenation. While most sedimentary successions deposited during this time interval have experienced thermal overprinting from burial diagenesis and metamorphism, the ca. 2.1 Ga black shales of the Francevillian B Formation (FB2) cropping out in southeastern Gabon have not.

The Francevillian Formation contains centimeter-sized structures interpreted as organized and spatially discrete populations of colonial organisms living in an oxygenated marine ecosystem. Here, new material from the FB2 black shales is presented and analyzed to further explore its biogenicity and taphonomy. Our extended record comprises variably sized, shaped, and structured pyritized macrofossils of lobate, elongated, and rod-shaped morphologies as well as abundant non-pyritized disk-shaped macrofossils and organic-walled acritarchs.

Combined microtomography, geochemistry, and sedimentary analysis suggest a biota fossilized during early diagenesis. The emergence of this biota follows a rise in atmospheric oxygen, which is consistent with the idea that surface oxygenation allowed the evolution and ecological expansion of complex megascopic life.
And, for added excitement, the strata these critters came from (FB2 unit) is sitting on top of the FA unit, and the upper layers of the FA unit are the home of the legendary Oklo natural reactors. :)



ETA: Scientific American article here - Two-Billion-Year-Old Fossils Reveal Strange and Puzzling Forms
  • Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 02:26:48 AM by osmanthus
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Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1298
Yes well. Creationists are not known for their useful contributions to science.
Actually you're wrong.  Creationists founded modern science.   Recently there have been a fair number of  professional scientists reject Darwinism and adopt what they call "the third way."  One major cause of this is the work of creationists.
Also the gradual shift in geology from strict uniformitarianism to catastrophism has been the direct result of the work of creationists.
Wow.
Every single sentence there is dead wrong.
Quite an accomplishment!
For dave, that's just another tuesday. ;)

Re: Testy Explains the Layers Which Include the Tonto Group
Reply #1299
Traditionally they have approached it by putting the bullshit obfuscation in the sciency words. They have extrapolated from Genesis, but they haven't directly contradicted it. For instance, God says he will destroy the world, so they can happily make their Flood as destructive as they like. No problem.

This is a new level of desperation on their part. It doesn't depend on truthy scienciness. If the Bible says God made life in the ocean on the fifth day, and if AiG says he did it on the second day, any five year old with an average brain is likely to wonder why AiG says the Bible is wrong.

Never said they were clever. You're correct about the desperation. But they (or some/many of them) don't believe in 'Flood science' themselves, and all they really do is devise what a friend and I used to call a Theory of the Month. It was a game we played, where we would alternately put forth an outrageous theory and then defend it, using as much 'real' science as we could think of, over wine and food as if it was real. It was hilarious good fun. AIG and the like play that game for real. Stromatolites just threw a monkey wrench into the general easy peasy write something sleazy lazy round of making shit up. So somebody made some shit up without even considering the heretical nature of the argument. These guys are not theologians, and don't really understand the implications. Which isn't surprising, seeing how fast and loose Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are with standard theology in the first place.
One of the guys from IIDB (I think) used to do something like that. He had a whole website where he would argue for a flat earth, totally making shit up (he even had page saying that it was all made up) and flat earthers would eat it up, and others would argue with him, so he drew in the shallow thinkers from both sides. ;)