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Topic: The Tides ... Take 5 (Read 1623 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • uncool
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #75
FX: read what cold one said carefully: he didn't say the friction doesn't exist. He said it doesn't "determine or limit shallow water free wave speed".

And with reference to the derivation of the shallow water free wave speed, he's right. More specifically: the derivation simply assumes that the speed of the wave at the bottom is 0, if I remember correctly.

Of course, you'd have to look at that derivation to get that. And you've continually refused to do so.

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #76
Quote
Most problematic item in the shallow water models is the bottom friction parameterization
since the near-bottom current shears are not explicitly resolved. In the Stommel circulation
problem (p. 4.4) the linear bottom friction formulation ...

Dynamical Oceanography
Lecture notes by Jüri Elken Page 51
CHAPTER 5. Shallow water theory
http://msi.ttu.ee/~elken/DO5.pdf


"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #77
Quote
Shallow-water Wave Transformations
Interaction with the sea bottom. Water depths are less than 1/20 the wave length. Bottom friction alters both the
- Wave form
- Celerity

https://dusk.geo.orst.edu/oceans/waves.html
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #78
I can understand objecting to the use of the word "friction", but to claim it isn't the reason for calculating wave speed is idiotic.  It would be like claiming the head loss in a turbulent flow isn't calculated using the Darcy Equation.
Quote
Darcy Friction Factor. The Darcy Equation is a theoretical equation that predicts the frictional energy loss in a pipe based on the velocity of the fluid and the resistance due to friction. It is used almost exclusively to calculate head loss due to friction in turbulent flow.
http://www.fsl.orst.edu/geowater/FX3/help/8_Hydraulic_Reference/Darcy_Friction_Factor.htm

It's sort of idiotic to object to that and say "They are using friction wrong, and friction isn't the reason for the energy loss!"

Good luck with that.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #79
FX: read what cold one said carefully: he didn't say the friction doesn't exist. He said it doesn't "determine or limit shallow water free wave speed".
It's clear what he objects to, but what isn't being stated is what he "believes" limits the speed of shallow water waves.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • uncool
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #80
Quote
Most problematic item in the shallow water models is the bottom friction parameterization
since the near-bottom current shears are not explicitly resolved. In the Stommel circulation
problem (p. 4.4) the linear bottom friction formulation ...

Dynamical Oceanography
Lecture notes by Jüri Elken Page 51
CHAPTER 5. Shallow water theory
http://msi.ttu.ee/~elken/DO5.pdf



Same source, start of section 5.4, which is where the speed is derived:

Quote
Consider frictionless (tau_xb=tau_yb=  0)free motions (tau_x=tau_y=0)

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #81
A tsunami is a good example of how a very long wave can travel fast in the deep ocean, 500 mph, but slows as it encounters the ocean bottom.

Objecting to calling the wave interaction with the ocean floor "friction," is one thing.  It's quite another to say this is not the reason th wave slows. (which is exactly what he is saying)

It's actually one of the dumbest things I have ever read online
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #82
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #83
Quote
Most problematic item in the shallow water models is the bottom friction parameterization
since the near-bottom current shears are not explicitly resolved. In the Stommel circulation
problem (p. 4.4) the linear bottom friction formulation ...

Dynamical Oceanography
Lecture notes by Jüri Elken Page 51
CHAPTER 5. Shallow water theory
http://msi.ttu.ee/~elken/DO5.pdf





The first thing that link says:  "It is considered that the flow does not depend on depth. This is exactly true for barotropic non-frictional motions."  Then he goes on to derive the "shallow" wave speed I referred to. 

lol

Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #84
At least watching F X machine gun his feet still provides a little entertainment value....

  • MikeB
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #85
He is an awesome dancer!

Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #86
Bets on how long it takes the burn to fade, so F X can crawl back out of his hole and post again?

Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #87
Here's what that page says now:

Oceans Are Pulled Up
Quote
The gravitational force of the Moon and the Sun pulls the water in the oceans upwards making the oceans bulge, which creates high tide in the areas of Earth facing the Moon and on the opposite side. (See illustration.)



Oceans Are Pulled Up
The gravitational force of the Moon and the Sun pulls the water in the oceans upwards making the oceans bulge, which creates high tide in the areas of Earth facing the Moon and on the opposite side. (See illustration.)

At the same time, in other parts of the planet, the ocean water drains away to fill these bulges, creating low tides. However, the oceans' water is also constrained by the continents and varying ocean depths. As a result, the tides behave more like water sloshing around in an oddly shaped bathtub than in a smooth and even basin..

https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/moon/tides.html

Quite correct.

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #88
Quote
At the same time, in other parts of the planet, the ocean water drains away to fill these bulges, creating low tides. However, the oceans' water is also constrained by the continents and varying ocean depths. As a result, the tides behave more like water sloshing around in an oddly shaped bathtub than in a smooth and even basin..

https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/moon/tides.html

Quite correct.
No, and that you still think so, after almost a decade, is pretty damn funny. 
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #89
Quote
At the same time, in other parts of the planet, the ocean water drains away to fill these bulges, creating low tides. However, the oceans' water is also constrained by the continents and varying ocean depths. As a result, the tides behave more like water sloshing around in an oddly shaped bathtub than in a smooth and even basin..

https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/moon/tides.html

Quite correct.
No, and that you still think so, after almost a decade, is pretty damn funny. 


You're back!  How's that friction burn feeling?

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #90
"There is a tide in the affairs of men, which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune.
Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries."
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #91
When it comes to the emotional and immature idiocy over the tides, I think of the wisdom of Pavlov's Dog
Quote
Why the fuck do you keep saying unprovoked and baseless attack like you were fucking assaulted? The guy thinks you are wrong about some tides or some shit. Stop trying to make it out like he raped you and took your anal virginity.

http://talkrational.org/archive/showthread.php?p=505796#post505796
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #92
He was responding to spork of course, who thinks somebody pointing out you are wrong on the internet is the same as a personal attack.

Quote
FX just flat out attacked me in the first thread because he noticed I was talking about a topic he THOUGHT he knew something about. He was wrong on every single point then (and proved several of them for me himself), and is wrong on every single point again.
http://talkrational.org/archive/showpost.php?p=1047895&postcount=116

I would bet money that spork, to this day, actually believes he was right, and everything since then, no matter how sound the science, no matter how much evidence there is, still doesn't get the basic points.  And he isn't the only one.  A lot of people still think there are tide bulges, and that the tides are from twin bulges circling the earth.

At least Humber had the sense to quit posting at some point.  When it was impossible to keep insisting he was right and everyone else was stupid or part of some scam.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #93
At least Humber had the sense to quit posting at some point.  When it was impossible to keep insisting he was right and everyone else was stupid or part of some scam.

When will you arrive at that point?

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #94
As far as I can tell, an object need not be "small" to be in geostationary orbit, nor is there any reason such object, natural or man-made, could not remain there for human lifespan timeframes.
Then you haven't even done a cursory check on the matter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary_orbit#Orbital_stability


"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #95
Mayhap you're overthinking this one F X.  There is no reasonable doubt about the tidal driving force - as outlined by Gamow - but the World is a messy complicated place.  What we observe in your global oceanic tide plots is the resultant of those tidal forces on the variable depth oceans broken up by the irregular continental land masses.
It's even more complicated than that. The Coriolis effect would cause the tide to form a gyre, even if the ocean was deep enough to allow the tide to keep up with the moon.

Quote
An idealized tidal wave would move across Earth at 1,600 kilometers per hour (1,000 miles per hour) at the equator. Because tides are an extreme example of a shallow-water wave, friction with the ocean floor slows tides to a speed of about 700 kilometers per hour (435 miles per hour). Continents further restrict tide movement. The tidal waves cannot keep up

Read more: http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/St-Ts/Tides.html#ixzz5FfmXEiwx


"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #96
Mayhap you're overthinking this one F X.  There is no reasonable doubt about the tidal driving force - as outlined by Gamow - but the World is a messy complicated place.  What we observe in your global oceanic tide plots is the resultant of those tidal forces on the variable depth oceans broken up by the irregular continental land masses.
It's even more complicated than that. The Coriolis effect would cause the tide to form a gyre, even if the ocean was deep enough to allow the tide to keep up with the moon.

Quote
An idealized tidal wave would move across Earth at 1,600 kilometers per hour (1,000 miles per hour) at the equator. Because tides are an extreme example of a shallow-water wave, friction with the ocean floor slows tides to a speed of about 700 kilometers per hour (435 miles per hour). Continents further restrict tide movement. The tidal waves cannot keep up

Read more: http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/St-Ts/Tides.html#ixzz5FfmXEiwx

You found another wrong thing on the internet!  Let me see if I can get that one fixed too.

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #97
You found another wrong thing on the internet!  Let me see if I can get that one fixed too.

It must be a daumting task to correct all the world's textbooks and scientific knowledge.  But since you alone know better, you can do it.

Quote
If the rotating earth had no continents, oceans would still experience friction with the ocean floor, and their tidal bulges would be displaced from the earth-moon and their tidal bulges would be displaced from the earth-moon line

As waves approach shallow water, they slow down due to friction with the ocean floor

Shallow water waves are, perhaps unsurprisingly, affected by friction with the ocean floor.

When a tsunami reach a shallow water, friction with the ocean floor causes the wave height to increase.

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #98
You found another wrong thing on the internet!  Let me see if I can get that one fixed too.

It must be a daumting task to correct all the world's textbooks and scientific knowledge.  But since you alone know better, you can do it.

So far you've only identified one wrong textbook, and it's been corrected.  Thanks for bringing it to my attention, by the way.

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: The Tides ... Take 5
Reply #99
For anyone else reading, the speed of a water wave is normally computed ignoring friction,
Also, it's not friction that determines or limits the shallow water free wave speed. 
FX: read what cold one said carefully: he didn't say the friction doesn't exist. He said it doesn't "determine or limit shallow water free wave speed".

Yep, but that is idiotic
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭