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  • TalkRational: Holding back the Atheist Civil Rights Movement since 2008

Topic: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World) (Read 209057 times) previous topic - next topic

BenTheBiased, entropy, DaveGodfrey, VoxRat, borealis, JonF (+ 1 Hidden) and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32275
Oh? Who is the judge of such things?

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32276
If every individual judges for him/herself what constitutes "established science" then the term is pretty much meaningless.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32277
Hey! Here's a recent (2016) review:

Holistic Management
- a critical review of Allan Savory's grazing method


It's 45 pages long (with appendices) and I won't try to summarize, but from the Conclusions:
Quote
There are relatively few (11) peer-reviewed stu- dies on the effects of holistic grazing that are 'approved' by the Savory Institute, i.e., included in Savory Institute Research Portfolio. These case studies show positive effects of holistic grazing in terms of grassland and livestock pro- ductivity and soil conditions over conventional or continuous grazing, but are rather limited in time, number of study sites and analyzed data. Only six of the studies use measurements while five are based on interviews or surveys. Further, the results are partially inconclusive, and the re- ported effects are in most cases rather small.

... so it seems that Hawkins's claims that it's "established science" are premature, to put it kindly.

Were any of the studies negative?
How about studies that are not 'approved' by the Savory Institute? Any of those included in this review?

I ask, because if the only studies in this review are those 'approved' by the Savory Institute and they only 'approved' of positive studies, it automatically has a bias in favor of the Savory Institute.
Are we there yet?

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32278
They shoot elephants don't they?
I once shot an elephant in my pajamas.
A walk through the ocean of most mens souls would scarcely get your feet wet.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32279
Oh? Who is the judge of such things?
should the same scientists judge these things who have been responsible for advising Farmers to practice such destructive types of Agriculture for the last 100 years?

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32280
Methinks not.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32281
If every individual judges for him/herself what constitutes "established science" then the term is pretty much meaningless.
You mean like everyone having their own dictionary, or even perhaps their own special language?
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32282
Oh? Who is the judge of such things?
should the same scientists judge these things who have been responsible for advising Farmers to practice such destructive types of Agriculture for the last 100 years?
Which scientists would that be and what did they advise?
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32283
BYW Bluffy, did you look at that video I linked to?
Do you have an alternate explanation for those Ellensburg Blue Agates?
Are we there yet?

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32284
Oh? Who is the judge of such things?
should the same scientists judge these things who have been responsible for advising Farmers to practice such destructive types of Agriculture for the last 100 years?
how do scientists judge things, Dave? Do you even know?
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32285
Oh? Who is the judge of such things?
should the same scientists judge these things who have been responsible for advising Farmers to practice such destructive types of Agriculture for the last 100 years?
how do scientists judge things, Dave? Do you even know?
what if there were no rhetorical questions?
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32286
Oh? Who is the judge of such things?
should the same scientists judge these things who have been responsible for advising Farmers to practice such destructive types of Agriculture for the last 100 years?
Nice strawman.
But no.
That's not who decides what is or is not "established science".
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32287
Hey! Here's a recent (2016) review:

Holistic Management
- a critical review of Allan Savory's grazing method


It's 45 pages long (with appendices) and I won't try to summarize, but from the Conclusions:
Quote
There are relatively few (11) peer-reviewed stu- dies on the effects of holistic grazing that are 'approved' by the Savory Institute, i.e., included in Savory Institute Research Portfolio. These case studies show positive effects of holistic grazing in terms of grassland and livestock pro- ductivity and soil conditions over conventional or continuous grazing, but are rather limited in time, number of study sites and analyzed data. Only six of the studies use measurements while five are based on interviews or surveys. Further, the results are partially inconclusive, and the re- ported effects are in most cases rather small.

... so it seems that Hawkins's claims that it's "established science" are premature, to put it kindly.

Were any of the studies negative?
How about studies that are not 'approved' by the Savory Institute? Any of those included in this review?

I ask, because if the only studies in this review are those 'approved' by the Savory Institute and they only 'approved' of positive studies, it automatically has a bias in favor of the Savory Institute.
It includes other studies too.
The reason I tracked it down was to answer my question, above: has anyone other than Hawkins made any claims about "HMG" with anything other than cattle and sheep?
It turns out the answer is: No.
Hawkins is full of shit.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32288
But lol at the idea that Savory's claims are "established science", but the age of the earth and common descent of humans and chimps is unfounded speculation.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32289
Oh? Who is the judge of such things?
should the same scientists judge these things who have been responsible for advising Farmers to practice such destructive types of Agriculture for the last 100 years?
how do scientists judge things, Dave? Do you even know?
Yes. By how it affects their pay, their career advancement, and their invitations to dinner parties.

  • uncool
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32290
Oh? Who is the judge of such things?
should the same scientists judge these things who have been responsible for advising Farmers to practice such destructive types of Agriculture for the last 100 years?
how do scientists judge things, Dave? Do you even know?
Yes. By how it affects their pay, their career advancement, and their invitations to dinner parties.
Lol yes. Exactly. I'm a mathematician and you know what? We all know the prime number theorem is wrong, but no one cares any more. So why should we correct those idiots that believe us?

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32291
::)  Hawkins doubles down on the stupid.

Meanwhile, we have learned that not even Savory or any of his disciples have made claims about HMG with anything other than cattle and sheep. That's just Hawkins's own private bullshit.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32292
Oh? Who is the judge of such things?
should the same scientists judge these things who have been responsible for advising Farmers to practice such destructive types of Agriculture for the last 100 years?
how do scientists judge things, Dave? Do you even know?
Yes. By how it affects their pay, their career advancement, and their invitations to dinner parties.

You're such an ass.

I don't know where you get the idea that 'octohatters' and scientists are particularly well paid (most of them aren't), and the 'dinner party' meme is really dumb.

Most of the actual scientists I know work for the government or for natural resource based companies, a few for universities. None of these are into holding parties for their science staff.

  • uncool
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32293
Hey Dave,

Where in the process of becoming scientists do you think they go wrong?

ETA: do you know the usual process?
  • Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 06:14:52 PM by uncool

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32294
Hey Dave,

Where in the process of becoming scientists do you think they go wrong?
It should be noted that Hawkins regularly claims to be a scientist himself.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • Photon
  • I interfere with myself
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32295
Hey Dave,

Where in the process of becoming scientists do you think they go wrong?
It should be noted that Hawkins regularly claims to be a scientist himself.
Pining for dinner party invitations, and secret meetings no doubt.

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32296
He really should be after the artists. I can't even count how many wine and cheese openings I've been invited to in my life. Probably a couple hundred.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32297
Hey Dave,

Where in the process of becoming scientists do you think they go wrong?

Expecting a salary for their scientific work. Same problem most ministers and public "servants" have.

  • Photon
  • I interfere with myself
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32298
Hey Dave,

Where in the process of becoming scientists do you think they go wrong?

Expecting a salary for their scientific work. Same problem most ministers and public "servants" have.
Yeah, fuck all those people who get paid for their expertise! Goat milk should be the new currency.

  • Fenrir
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #32299
How dare people expect recompense for effort!!

Who do they think they are? Salesmen or hobby farmers!

The nerve!
It's what plants crave.