Skip to main content

TR Memescape

  • Talkrational: it's heartwarming that two guys with embarrassing excrement stories can back each other up like this

Topic: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World) (Read 210759 times) previous topic - next topic

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.
  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35125
No uncool... the assumptions have to be grounded in reality.

Can't invoke magic.
You do all the time.
Are we there yet?

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35126
This is the guy - Ian Mitchell-Innes - who taught HMG to Greg Judy who in turn taught it to me ... Ian learned it from Allan Savory.
It's like a goddamned apostolic succession!  :awgee:
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35127
Hogwash. We have plenty of information with which we could make informed decisions.

I really do want to create a simulation sometime. That would be freaking awesome.
It would get bogged down in discussions about what it is even supposed to simulate and that it's not doing that.
I cannot see this going anywhere but nowhere.
Nah. Wouldn't be that hard.  The goal would be to test the "Pingu Food Production System" vs. the "Dave Food Production Systrm" ... mainly how many annual food calories could be produced vs. Number of man hours to produce it.

You just aren't getting this "depends on what the island is" thing, are you?

And there is no "island" that is "like Missouri" because Missouri, when I last looked was in the middle of a fucking great continent.
Dave only chose islands to make sure "we" couldn't leave. So pretend he said we were walled into a small area of Missouri.

Doesn't change the "it depends" part, but the "no island like" should be relatively irrelevant.

My point was the larger one, that the very idea that we should have assumed that when he said "an island" he meant "something like Missouri" because of course he did, is symptomatic of his ignorance and dismissal of really important differences between climates and biome.

Of course when he said "an island" we didn't think "like Missouri". Anyone with half an ounce of ecological sense would immediately ask "how large?  what latititude? what longitude?"  The whole reason his thought experiment is so absurd is that the answers depends on what, in another context, he would call DETAILS.

So if he means an area of Missouri with a barbed wired fence and security guards around it, then he should say so.  And he should also say whether, for example, it includes a river.

Again DETAILS. 

The world is a WHOLE, which is why it is so utterly ludicrous to be discussing what he calls "holistic" solutions to a tiny unspecified part.

My island includes a volcano.
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35128
No uncool... the assumptions have to be grounded in reality.

Can't invoke magic.

Why on earth not?  You do.
Not in the area of food production I don't.
No unexpected plagues. That's magic. Never a difficult pregnancy or labor. That's magic.
No severe storms, that's magic too.
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35129
I imagine that I've smuggled in hundreds of millions of dollars, hidden it in a safe and secret location, and am using it to bribe the guards to bring in all the food I want.

Result: More calories than I could possibly need produced with zero man hours of labor. My imagination wins!
Not to mention the money you'll be making on the inevitable black market.
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35130
No uncool... the assumptions have to be grounded in reality.

Can't invoke magic.

Why on earth not?  You do.
Not in the area of food production I don't.

Why the exception?
There has never been an exception to the rule that Dave Hawkins cannot invoke Magic. I'm not like Benny Hinn.
Hogwash. We have plenty of information with which we could make informed decisions.

I really do want to create a simulation sometime. That would be freaking awesome.
It would get bogged down in discussions about what it is even supposed to simulate and that it's not doing that.
I cannot see this going anywhere but nowhere.
Nah. Wouldn't be that hard.  The goal would be to test the "Pingu Food Production System" vs. the "Dave Food Production Systrm" ... mainly how many annual food calories could be produced vs. Number of man hours to produce it.

You just aren't getting this "depends on what the island is" thing, are you?

And there is no "island" that is "like Missouri" because Missouri, when I last looked was in the middle of a fucking great continent.
Dave only chose islands to make sure "we" couldn't leave. So pretend he said we were walled into a small area of Missouri.

Doesn't change the "it depends" part, but the "no island like" should be relatively irrelevant.

My point was the larger one, that the very idea that we should have assumed that when he said "an island" he meant "something like Missouri" because of course he did, is symptomatic of his ignorance and dismissal of really important differences between climates and biome.

Of course when he said "an island" we didn't think "like Missouri". Anyone with half an ounce of ecological sense would immediately ask "how large?  what latititude? what longitude?"  The whole reason his thought experiment is so absurd is that the answers depends on what, in another context, he would call DETAILS.

So if he means an area of Missouri with a barbed wired fence and security guards around it, then he should say so.  And he should also say whether, for example, it includes a river.

Again DETAILS. 

The world is a WHOLE, which is why it is so utterly ludicrous to be discussing what he calls "holistic" solutions to a tiny unspecified part.

Yeah. I just find some parts of Dave's stupidity...easy to translate. His choice to use island rather than jail was because the standard fantasy of forced isolation is an island; he didn't think it through the details. As such, I personally don't find rehashing his inability to put together a cohesive world from extremely common tropes that interesting. More interesting to me is understanding why - even in a case as close to matching what he actually wants - he thinks this thought experiment will prove anything.
I think it will demonstrate the superiority of an animal foods based system. But if I'm wrong ... Ok. I'm wrong several times a day. It's part of science.

You would do THAT by running an ACTUAL experiment and recording DATA.
Of course. And I have already done that with dairy goats. And Walter Haguen has already done it for his style of vegetable gardening.
But you don't have any actual DATA recorded.
Are we there yet?

  • Martin.au
  • Thingyologist
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35131
Dave, are you still going on about your island experiment? Out of curiosity, could you even find water if dropped off in a random landscape?
Yes of course and I'm not just talking about any random landscape. I would propose a landscape like my location in Missouri because it's very easy to work with.

One with a town nearby?
Nope.  You get one shot at loading up with whatever supplies you want - garden seeds, livestock, tools, etc.

Ok. I'll take a nice house, 5 years of supplies, a decent computer and internet.
"That which can be asserted with evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." (Dave Hawkins)

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35132
Hogwash. We have plenty of information with which we could make informed decisions.

I really do want to create a simulation sometime. That would be freaking awesome.
It would get bogged down in discussions about what it is even supposed to simulate and that it's not doing that.
I cannot see this going anywhere but nowhere.
Nah. Wouldn't be that hard.  The goal would be to test the "Pingu Food Production System" vs. the "Dave Food Production Systrm" ... mainly how many annual food calories could be produced vs. Number of man hours to produce it.

You just aren't getting this "depends on what the island is" thing, are you?

And there is no "island" that is "like Missouri" because Missouri, when I last looked was in the middle of a fucking great continent.
Dave only chose islands to make sure "we" couldn't leave. So pretend he said we were walled into a small area of Missouri.

Doesn't change the "it depends" part, but the "no island like" should be relatively irrelevant.

My point was the larger one, that the very idea that we should have assumed that when he said "an island" he meant "something like Missouri" because of course he did, is symptomatic of his ignorance and dismissal of really important differences between climates and biome.

Of course when he said "an island" we didn't think "like Missouri". Anyone with half an ounce of ecological sense would immediately ask "how large?  what latititude? what longitude?"  The whole reason his thought experiment is so absurd is that the answers depends on what, in another context, he would call DETAILS.

So if he means an area of Missouri with a barbed wired fence and security guards around it, then he should say so.  And he should also say whether, for example, it includes a river.

Again DETAILS. 

The world is a WHOLE, which is why it is so utterly ludicrous to be discussing what he calls "holistic" solutions to a tiny unspecified part.

Yeah. I just find some parts of Dave's stupidity...easy to translate. His choice to use island rather than jail was because the standard fantasy of forced isolation is an island; he didn't think it through the details. As such, I personally don't find rehashing his inability to put together a cohesive world from extremely common tropes that interesting. More interesting to me is understanding why - even in a case as close to matching what he actually wants - he thinks this thought experiment will prove anything.
I think it will demonstrate the superiority of an animal foods based system. But if I'm wrong ... Ok. I'm wrong several times a day. It's part of science.

You would do THAT by running an ACTUAL experiment and recording DATA.
Of course. And I have already done that with dairy goats. And Walter Haguen has already done it for his style of vegetable gardening.

You aren't concentrating, Dave.

We WERE talking about what your "thought experiment" would achieve, remember?
I don't need to concentrate. This is so easy I can do this with half my brain tied behind my back as Rush Limbaugh likes to say.

We simply have to agree on certain parameters for example how many man hours it takes to grow a certain size potato crop and how many food calories of output you get. And how many man hours it takes to raise meat animals and dairy animals versus how many food calories are output and so on.
You don't have half a brain.
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35133
Hogwash. We have plenty of information with which we could make informed decisions.

I really do want to create a simulation sometime. That would be freaking awesome.
It would get bogged down in discussions about what it is even supposed to simulate and that it's not doing that.
I cannot see this going anywhere but nowhere.
Nah. Wouldn't be that hard.  The goal would be to test the "Pingu Food Production System" vs. the "Dave Food Production Systrm" ... mainly how many annual food calories could be produced vs. Number of man hours to produce it.

You just aren't getting this "depends on what the island is" thing, are you?

And there is no "island" that is "like Missouri" because Missouri, when I last looked was in the middle of a fucking great continent.
Dave only chose islands to make sure "we" couldn't leave. So pretend he said we were walled into a small area of Missouri.

Doesn't change the "it depends" part, but the "no island like" should be relatively irrelevant.

My point was the larger one, that the very idea that we should have assumed that when he said "an island" he meant "something like Missouri" because of course he did, is symptomatic of his ignorance and dismissal of really important differences between climates and biome.

Of course when he said "an island" we didn't think "like Missouri". Anyone with half an ounce of ecological sense would immediately ask "how large?  what latititude? what longitude?"  The whole reason his thought experiment is so absurd is that the answers depends on what, in another context, he would call DETAILS.

So if he means an area of Missouri with a barbed wired fence and security guards around it, then he should say so.  And he should also say whether, for example, it includes a river.

Again DETAILS. 

The world is a WHOLE, which is why it is so utterly ludicrous to be discussing what he calls "holistic" solutions to a tiny unspecified part.

Yeah. I just find some parts of Dave's stupidity...easy to translate. His choice to use island rather than jail was because the standard fantasy of forced isolation is an island; he didn't think it through the details. As such, I personally don't find rehashing his inability to put together a cohesive world from extremely common tropes that interesting. More interesting to me is understanding why - even in a case as close to matching what he actually wants - he thinks this thought experiment will prove anything.
I think it will demonstrate the superiority of an animal foods based system. But if I'm wrong ... Ok. I'm wrong several times a day. It's part of science.

You would do THAT by running an ACTUAL experiment and recording DATA.
Of course. And I have already done that with dairy goats. And Walter Haguen has already done it for his style of vegetable gardening.

You aren't concentrating, Dave.

We WERE talking about what your "thought experiment" would achieve, remember?
I don't need to concentrate. This is so easy I can do this with half my brain tied behind my back as Rush Limbaugh likes to say.

You couldn't even concentrate hard enough to remember the question ffs.

We simply have to agree on certain parameters for example how many man hours it takes to grow a certain size potato crop and how many food calories of output you get. And how many man hours it takes to raise meat animals and dairy animals versus how many food calories are output and so on.

Well, I reject your premise.

You are, as I said, failing to understand the difference between model and data.

Sure you can calculate those things given some a priori parameters.  That is your MODEL.  You can then TEST that model against DATA.

The data may show that your model was really good.  They may also show that your parameters were wildly off.
You are such a master at dispensing squid ink.

Look I know that you cannot have real data in a thought experiment. Do you think I was born yesterday?

All I want you to do is agree with me on certain model parameters with respect to various types of food production, both plant foods and animal Foods. In other words I want you to pick 3 or 5 or 10 types of foods that you want to produce on your Island in  thought experiment. I will also pick 3 or 5 or 10 types of foods and we will agree on the parameters for All Foods produced. Then we will run some numbers based on these model parameters and see what comes out.

Agreed?
I agree all your food will rot instantly. You lose.
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35134
We'd just need to set some parameters. Anyone want to take a stab at naming one?
Stabbing Bluffy man hours - about 1. Need to do a thorough job of it. Planning. Prep. Practice. Plus clean up.
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35135
What I want is for Pingu to pick the kinds of foods she would like to have on her island and try to get some real world data about man hours vs. food calorie output for those selected foods.  Then I want her to incorporate these rough-but-believable numbers into some rough meal plans for say 5 people for 5 years and calculate how much of each person's week is going to be spent on food production.
Let's see yours first! So we know the acceptable format and such.

Get to it. Be sure to include all the relevant details. Complete medical history on each citizen, actual weather data along with probably long range climatic forecasts, soil conditions, specific species of each selected item. Also the exact schedule of each and every citizen for each and every day along with specifics of the required equipment.
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35136
What I want is for Pingu to pick the kinds of foods she would like to have on her island and try to get some real world data about man hours vs. food calorie output for those selected foods.  Then I want her to incorporate these rough-but-believable numbers into some rough meal plans for say 5 people for 5 years and calculate how much of each person's week is going to be spent on food production.

5 years?  So, if one side turns their imaginary island paradise into an imaginary unlivable wasteland over the course of 5 years, do they still win if they had more imaginary leisure time than the other side?
My island definitely has some boats we can cruise over to Bluffy's island and steal whatever he's managed to produce. Since it's a good sized island and he's the only one there, he can't be everywhere at once.

We can leave a big live crab in his crap bucket. My girl did that several times when she was working on one of the fishing boats in Alaska back in the 80s. To discourage the whores the Captain brought aboard as "assistants".
Are we there yet?

  • Sea Star
  • Not an octohatter
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35137
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Today at 07:50:40 AM
Lol
Sea Star has been trolling me this whole time.

  • Martin.au
  • Thingyologist
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35138
Actually, as a bunch of us can sail, why do we need an island. Let's just have a boat and be pirates. Arrrr, to Singapore!!!
"That which can be asserted with evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." (Dave Hawkins)

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35139
This is the guy - Ian Mitchell-Innes - who taught HMG to Greg Judy who in turn taught it to me ... Ian learned it from Allan Savory.
It's like a goddamned apostolic succession!  :awgee:
Yeah kinda

Lol

  • Photon
  • I interfere with myself
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35140
Actually, as a bunch of us can sail, why do we need an island. Let's just have a boat and be pirates. Arrrr, to Singapore!!!
Interstingly enough (or not), I understand the concepts of sailing and vector addition very well, but have never had the opportunity to try the former. I do the latter pretty much every day. I've been on a boat three times in my life, and two of those were ferries which hardly count.  I grew up two miles from two lakes too.  I was much more interested in playing hockey on the frozen variety than boating in the non-solid version, I guess.

#isitreallymissingfrommylife
#prairiefarmboy

ETA:
As to pirating, my military training might help, but I find nowadays I'm much more attuned to giving my stuff away as opposed to taking it. Maybe we could be pirates who exchange goods and services for their equivalent monetary or barter value in a peaceable interaction, or just be the pirates who deliver shit to people for free. Dave could use the help on his island, if any of the simulations are any guide.
  • Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 04:29:00 PM by Photon

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35141

  • Sea Star
  • Not an octohatter
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35142
These are my mob-grazing neighbors!
http://nrcs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=c49d653f05ac46098d6ff8bbf6215cbf
Awesome. Looks like the real deal!
Yup! Apparently, they routinely trim all 4 hooves of all their hair sheep.
Did you note Pete say they plant their pastures, and he named a bunch of grasses?
They make their own compost and apply it to the pastures as well.
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Today at 07:50:40 AM
Lol
Sea Star has been trolling me this whole time.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35143
That's all very well and good, but...

do they shit in buckets ?
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35144
These are my mob-grazing neighbors!
http://nrcs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=c49d653f05ac46098d6ff8bbf6215cbf
Awesome. Looks like the real deal!
Yup! Apparently, they routinely trim all 4 hooves of all their hair sheep.
Did you note Pete say they plant their pastures, and he named a bunch of grasses?
They make their own compost and apply it to the pastures as well.
Pretty sure Joe Hopping does not trim hooves or plant any grasses.  Applying compost is a great way to speed everything up.

  • Sea Star
  • Not an octohatter
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35145
That's all very well and good, but...

do they shit in buckets ?
Not gonna ask 'em.
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Today at 07:50:40 AM
Lol
Sea Star has been trolling me this whole time.

  • Sea Star
  • Not an octohatter
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35146
These are my mob-grazing neighbors!
http://nrcs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=c49d653f05ac46098d6ff8bbf6215cbf
Awesome. Looks like the real deal!
Yup! Apparently, they routinely trim all 4 hooves of all their hair sheep.
Did you note Pete say they plant their pastures, and he named a bunch of grasses?
They make their own compost and apply it to the pastures as well.
Pretty sure Joe Hopping does not trim hooves or plant any grasses.  Applying compost is a great way to speed everything up.
It's just that you mentioned hair sheep being maintenance-free.
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Today at 07:50:40 AM
Lol
Sea Star has been trolling me this whole time.

  • Martin.au
  • Thingyologist
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35147
Actually, as a bunch of us can sail, why do we need an island. Let's just have a boat and be pirates. Arrrr, to Singapore!!!
Interstingly enough (or not), I understand the concepts of sailing and vector addition very well, but have never had the opportunity to try the former. I do the latter pretty much every day. I've been on a boat three times in my life, and two of those were ferries which hardly count.  I grew up two miles from two lakes too.  I was much more interested in playing hockey on the frozen variety than boating in the non-solid version, I guess.

#isitreallymissingfrommylife
#prairiefarmboy

ETA:
As to pirating, my military training might help, but I find nowadays I'm much more attuned to giving my stuff away as opposed to taking it. Maybe we could be pirates who exchange goods and services for their equivalent monetary or barter value in a peaceable interaction, or just be the pirates who deliver shit to people for free. Dave could use the help on his island, if any of the simulations are any guide.

I was thinking of trading professional services (not like the ones Dave finds outside the temple - but things like engineering, scientific, surveying and design skills) for goods. I suspect most of us would suck at literal piracy.
"That which can be asserted with evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." (Dave Hawkins)

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35148
These are my mob-grazing neighbors!
http://nrcs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=c49d653f05ac46098d6ff8bbf6215cbf
Awesome. Looks like the real deal!
Yup! Apparently, they routinely trim all 4 hooves of all their hair sheep.
Did you note Pete say they plant their pastures, and he named a bunch of grasses?
They make their own compost and apply it to the pastures as well.
Pretty sure Joe Hopping does not trim hooves or plant any grasses.  Applying compost is a great way to speed everything up.
It's just that you mentioned hair sheep being maintenance-free.
Mine are.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #35149
Like your dental hygiene I'd imagine.